Top set gets raised on the river
 

I used to post here a bit and read a lot, now I don't. But now I'm playing limit more, so there you go.


I raise UTG w/black JJ.
UTG+1 (13vpip, 12pfr) 3bets.
UTG+2 (99vpip, 0pfr) cold calls. He has 2 cards.
Folded back to me, I call.

FLOP
8h 5d Jd
I check. Bet, call, call

TURN
6h
I check. Bet, call, I raise, call, call

RIVER
4h
I bet, get raised by the TAG, calling station folds, and I ...

raise, because he's overplaying AA-QQ, or call because of the flush possibilities, or fold for the same reason?

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

i just call here. im assuming the TAG nkows that you are also TAG so hes not gonna raise AA-QQ here most of the time. Also if he does have something like AKh, youre gonna get 3bet after you raise and its hard to fold with top set.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

why did you just check call the flop?

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

I'm a moron and misread hand action. This is a lot closer than I initially thought.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

3-bet the river as there are more combos of AA-QQ than AQ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]/AK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

12 pfr is pretty aggressive, he's probably 3-betting AQh and possibly even KQh.

Your check-call-check-raise is pretty strong. He may be using the save-a-bet line with AA, but honestly I just don't see many players use this. More likely, he just made a flush.

I have enough doubt that I'm certainly not folding. I'd recommend just calling though.

good luck.
eric

ps. getting 2:1, you should cap preflop.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

I think it is safe to assume that UTG+1 is going to bet this flop and that UTG+2 is going to come along. So i advocate for c/r this flop. And then proceeding to lead and jam this turn, and im bet/calling this river.

I think that by being more aggressive on the flop and continuing that agression on the turn, UTG+1's possible AK/AQ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s may not make it to the river?

Can we rule out AJ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? That is a good possibility for UTG+1 considering his high PFR.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
why did you just check call the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I was pretty sure calling station would let me check raise the turn, and I could get 2 BBs from both there.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

Lead the flop and hope to get raised. Of check raise the flop. Not getting in an extra bet is a sin.

On the river - you can't fold. Call and expect to see AK [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the river as there are more combos of AA-QQ than AQ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]/AK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but does a reasonable player raise this river with AA-QQ? Remember, calling station is still hanging around when the action first gets to the TAG. If I've got AA in this spot, I'd probably like to see a showdown and hope the see my AJ or QQ

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

So anyways, I 3bet the river, he capped, I slapped my forehead and said "Why did I do that?"
Then I crying called and he had AKh, obviously.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise, because he's overplaying AA-QQ, or call because of the flush possibilities, or fold for the same reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

*grunch*

flop: I'd probably check raise here, with the flush draw sitting there. Bad time to slow-play.

turn: played fine.

river: Not folding here. Do you think he backed into a flush? Sure it's possible, but he played like he's got the AA-QQ. I'm too passive, so I'd call down here, but I'm guessing the right move here is to re-raise.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

*grunching*

I cap preflop. Then I bet flop. Then reraise if necessary. Same thing on turn.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]


flop: I'd probably check raise here, with the flush draw sitting there. Bad time to slow-play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can be worried about flush draws every time there's two of a suit on the board, especially only 3-handed.
I got 5 BB's via my line. If I check-raise the flop and lead the turn, I get 4 BB's.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
I got 5 BB's via my line. If I check-raise the flop and lead the turn, I get 4 BB's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I guess you're telling us you won. From my point of view, you got 3 BBs in with clearly the best hand, and 2 in where lots of people are telling you to just call the second bet on the river.

If you check-raise and lead, it's quite reasonable to believe that the overpair you apparently lost to would raise the turn, and you could get as many as 4 BBs in with clearly the best hand, while getting a lot more in on the turn charging anyone who does have a draw for the priviledge. Plus, you would take no risk of the turn being checked through, which would be a disaster.

I rarely use the check-call-check-raise line when I flop a strong hand. It's very common and handled well by most players.

-Eric

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


flop: I'd probably check raise here, with the flush draw sitting there. Bad time to slow-play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can be worried about flush draws every time there's two of a suit on the board, especially only 3-handed.
I got 5 BB's via my line. If I check-raise the flop and lead the turn, I get 4 BB's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi jacki you did gain some bets with the line you took vs check/raising the flop leading the turn but some % of the time the turn checks through and some % of the time you will lose your calling station on the turn. Your line worked out really well in this exact hand but there are risks involved with taking this line. Also had villian had an overpair the flop could have very well been capped 3 ways.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

IMO, the key is getting your money in with the best hand, as elindauer pointed out. as it turns out you did not get the money in when your hand was best. oh, sure your hand is best on that river equity-wise a huge % of the time. but that is in a vacuum. you have information from the way villain played his hand that should have tipped you off and you did not use it.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

cap PF. c/r flop and hope to cap. lead turn. Now that I disagree with your first three streets.

Call the river. I don't think this is that close. With the drawiness of the board, TAG will 3 bet the turn w/ AA-QQ if he's going to raise again. This is not the time to go for an overcall from idiot. The bd flush just came in and also it's not impossible for him to have 77 here.

Also, u will lose 2 when behind and win one when ahead. I would actually suspect u're behind more than ahead here.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the river as there are more combos of AA-QQ than AQ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]/AK[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, u can't just use ratios here. You have to examine the action and put urself in the position of the opponent (which is a lot easier to do with tight players) and then estimate percentages with possible hands. I assume u already knew this and didn't put much into the response (happens all the time for me), but others on this board may not understand this.

He is much more likely to three bet the turn if he is going to raise again with the drawiness of the board than go for an OC from an idiot w/ AA-QQ.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I got 5 BB's via my line. If I check-raise the flop and lead the turn, I get 4 BB's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I guess you're telling us you won. From my point of view, you got 3 BBs in with clearly the best hand, and 2 in where lots of people are telling you to just call the second bet on the river.

If you check-raise and lead, it's quite reasonable to believe that the overpair you apparently lost to would raise the turn, and you could get as many as 4 BBs in with clearly the best hand, while getting a lot more in on the turn charging anyone who does have a draw for the priviledge. Plus, you would take no risk of the turn being checked through, which would be a disaster.

I rarely use the check-call-check-raise line when I flop a strong hand. It's very common and handled well by most players.

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I was using those numbers to defend my flop and turn plays. I'm not counting river bets. I agree with others in this thread that my river play was very bad.

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

*grunch*

FLOP - perfect CR opportunity. Diamond draw should scream checkraise here...no time for slowplaying with that big pot.

TURN - looks good considering

RIVER - what hands could he have that have a seven or two hearts? Don't see any reasonable hand that has a seven, so that's not it. AhJh or something similar seems possible, but with your JJ, he'd have to have the case Jack. But would he 3-bet preflop up front with AJs? If you think so, call down. If not, reraise his a#!. Kinda seems to me he's trying to take advantage of that scare card, suggests big PP. You can't fold here for one more bet.

ScottieK

Re: Top set gets raised on the river
 

Cap freflop and check/raise the flop. With the fish in the hand, it's a good time for a cap. On the river, I can't see him having an overpair enough to 3-bet, and if I did three bet I'd have to fold to a cap (yuk!). Just call the river and see his AKs/AQs.