JJ in the SB -- you\'ll hate this line
 

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Button calls, Hero folds, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (14 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Re: JJ in the SB
 

Um...you forgot to raise preflop. And failing that, on the flop. And folding was just terrible. Is this a joke?

Re: JJ in the SB
 

You might want to explain your thought process to us.

Re: JJ in the SB
 

I would comment that I'd played every street differently but it's sort of an odd comment as you didn't even play the last two...

Re: JJ in the SB
 

First, I'm a NL player.

The reason for the call rather than 3-bet. I don't beleive I'm getting any pocket pairs, any small suited connectors in this hand.

I do not want to price myself in for the rest of this hand against 5 opponents. If an A,K,Q falls on the flop w/o a Jack I think I can safely assume my hand may as well be Jack high.

Re: JJ in the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
First, I'm a NL player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah ok, we didn't know. Not that we'll be any nicer.;)

[ QUOTE ]
The reason for the call rather than 3-bet. I don't beleive I'm getting any pocket pairs, any small suited connectors in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but you have a better hand than them that will win more often, and you earn value on every bet that goes into the pot. Suited connectors and low pp's in this case are behind you. The only way they make money is from implied odds. The more they have to put in preflop, the more they have to make up postflop and the less profitable their play will be. This means you gain.

[ QUOTE ]
I do not want to price myself in for the rest of this hand against 5 opponents. If an A,K,Q falls on the flop w/o a Jack I think I can safely assume my hand may as well be Jack high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak-tight thinking. I am not loving those cards, esp an A, against this crowd, but by no means are you automatically beat on say a Q high board. Furthermore, you will flop an overpair a subtantial portion of the time (half?). And sometimes overs will fall with a J. Anyway, you're putting in 1/6th of the money for a hand that will win well over 1/6th of the time (maybe 45/50%?). Huge profit there, don't pass up on it. All those times your opponents miss the flop, you gain bigtime. And that will be often.

Re: JJ in the SB
 

I think you might need to learn a little about limit poker.

Re: JJ in the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
First, I'm a NL player.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you never fold an overpair in a limit game, you'll do alright.

For this hand...the only reason not to 3-bet preflop is if you're planning to check/raise a safe flop. You couldn't have asked for a safer flop, short of XJJ. But anyway, you should 3-bet preflop--not so much to shorten the field (although that'd be nice), but for value. The odds are very good that you have the best hand at that point in time, and if people want to call 2 more bets with smaller pocket pairs or suited connectors or crap aces, that's just even better for you.

Re: JJ in the SB
 

I would suggest going to the micros for a while. It is obvious that at this point you do not grasp some of the fundamentals of limit holdem. Go back to basics, because playing like this is definietly
-EV

Re: JJ in the SB -- you\'ll hate this line
 

I think you are suffering quite heavily from your No Limit Legacy.

In limit hold'em, many of the factors that dominate decisions in no limit (controlling the size of the pot, not compromising your stack on mediocre hands, and so on) are not in play. Limit is about pushing often small edges in equity, and often those edges require risking a lot of bets in situations you'll lose a reasonable amount of the time.

Not reraising out of the small blind may be standard in no limit for those sorts of reasons. It's not in limit. We three-bet JJ out of the blinds usually.

Re: JJ in the SB
 

I read this than i threw up. Than i read it again and i threw up again and got mad cow disease. I cant imagine not 3 betting it PF.

Re: JJ in the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
You might want to explain your thought process to us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop, I suck

Flop, I suck

Next hand.

Re: JJ in the SB -- you\'ll hate this line
 

Even if this was a NL hand, I don't understand the flop fold. You'd think your mentality would be looking for an "all in" button and not the "fold" button.

Re: JJ in the SB -- you\'ll hate this line
 

I do hate it. MP2 is making a continuation bet and MP3 raises his draw/smaller pp/piece of the flop.
Why did you fold?

Re: JJ in the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]

Weak-tight thinking. I am not loving those cards, esp an A, against this crowd, but by no means are you automatically beat on say a Q high board. Furthermore, you will flop an overpair a subtantial portion of the time (half?). And sometimes overs will fall with a J. Anyway, you're putting in 1/6th of the money for a hand that will win well over 1/6th of the time (maybe 45/50%?). Huge profit there, don't pass up on it. All those times your opponents miss the flop, you gain bigtime. And that will be often.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is just a fantastic post. Concepts straight out of SSHE, which is the first book you should read over and over again if you are a NL player but you want to learn limit.

Re: JJ in the SB -- you\'ll hate this line
 

You're going to flop a set or an overpair 48% of the time. The raise came in from late position. People who suck coldcalled the raise. You've got a boatload of equity, and need to 3-bet if you enjoy making money in LHE.

As is, check-3bet the flop. Your hand is severely underrepresented and is most likely the best hand.

Rob

Re: JJ in the SB -- you\'ll hate this line
 

there was no need to include any of the other action after your bad fold. I have no problem with PF, but, this is the perfect flop for you to CR three bet, this is why we only called PF. By doing a CR three bet we can blow out the field and get it HU. I don't know what kind of flop you were looking for other then flopping a set

Re: JJ in the SB -- you\'ll hate this line
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not reraising out of the small blind may be standard in no limit for those sorts of reasons. It's not in limit. We three-bet JJ out of the blinds usually.

[/ QUOTE ]


here is a case where I will disagree. One major problem for people is putting in too much money PF being OOP. This hand is actually a good case for calling and working post flop. There can be pot manipulation in Limit, most of the time its not a good thing, but here it is. If hero is OTB, a three bet into a field is smart due to position. All we are doing is swelling the pot PF and we will be forced due to pot size to see at least the turn

Re: JJ in the SB -- you\'ll hate this line
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not reraising out of the small blind may be standard in no limit for those sorts of reasons. It's not in limit. We three-bet JJ out of the blinds usually.

[/ QUOTE ]


here is a case where I will disagree. One major problem for people is putting in too much money PF being OOP. This hand is actually a good case for calling and working post flop. There can be pot manipulation in Limit, most of the time its not a good thing, but here it is. If hero is OTB, a three bet into a field is smart due to position. All we are doing is swelling the pot PF and we will be forced due to pot size to see at least the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

With a late position raise and two awesome! coldcallers, you're going to be losing a lot more by calling and "keeping the pot small" to exascerbate their postflop errors than you will by exploiting their already sizable preflop errors. Raise it up.

Rob

Re: JJ in the SB
 

Good post!! I agree! If you had to play this pre-flop scenario over 1,000 times . . . on average you make more money with the 3-bet.

Re: JJ in the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good post!! I agree! If you had to play this pre-flop scenario over 1,000 times . . . on average you make more money with the 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but what about 1,001 times?