does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

There is a particular site I've been playing lately where no matter how I play I lose. I've won plenty of money playing on other sites, but this one site has me absolutely cringing every time I showdown. I have top pair, I get shown a set... I have a set, someone catches a straight... I have a straight, shown a flush...etc.

It's so bad that it's just reached a level of uncanny proportions.

Does anyone else ever wonder this, or is this just another example of variance?

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

p.s. down about 450-500 BBs over a short time.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

The main reason you cannot assume an online site is rigged (other than the obvious) is that if you think it's rigged you can't play there. Why on earth would you play someplace you were fairly sure was cheating you? Oh, and start listening to that little voice that is telling you the other guy has the straight or the flush.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

Well, when you are losing there are only a few explinations.

1. I am playing badly (the most likely and hardest to accept answer)
2. I am running badly due to variance (the 2nd most likely but hardest to understand answer)
3. The site/game is rigged against me (by far the least likely, but most appealing answer)

As a total aside, is this Paradise Poker at .5/1?

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

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Why on earth would you play someplace you were fairly sure was cheating you?

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Not sure I follow you. Are you implying the fact that they have a big clientele is evidence they probably aren't cheating people?

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Oh, and start listening to that little voice that is telling you the other guy has the straight or the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel I am playing well. A majority of the time I'm getting drawn out on with crap, even after I've bet and raised the whole way.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, when you are losing there are only a few explinations.

1. I am playing badly (the most likely and hardest to accept answer)
2. I am running badly due to variance (the 2nd most likely but hardest to understand answer)
3. The site/game is rigged against me (by far the least likely, but most appealing answer)

As a total aside, is this Paradise Poker at .5/1?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Interpoker 1/2 and 2/4

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

As an example... I just had pocket KKs... some donkey cold-called two raises on the flop with a pair of 8s (He had q-8o). He of course catches a queen and wins.

I wouldn't mention this but it's happening EVERY TIME.

The only time I win with A-A or K-K as a matter of fact is when everybody folds to my raise before the flop (and I'm raising every time). Otherwise I WILL get drawn out on.

I just don't experience this type of 'treatment' at any other site.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

I wouldn't sweat it.

Poker is not a get rich quick scheme and even if you are a billion times better than your opponents there will be nights you lose and lose badly.

The competitive spirit in me is bothered by this, but long term this keeps bad players coming back to the game, they feel they can win (and can) but its only temporary.

Also, big pairs and top pairs on the flop are great and all, but are very vulnerable holdings.

As the number of players in the pot increases the average strength of the winning hand at showdown goes up as well.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

In the situation you just described he has 5 outs to beat you, and thus has a 20% chance of beating your unimproved KK by the river.

That's 1 in 5, not exactly rare.

And people suffer from selective memory when it comes to big pairs.

You should be using PokerTracker and you could objectively see how often your big pairs actually win.

Over hundreds of AA hands, they win 75% of the time for me, which is pretty damn good, but 1 out of 4 they are going down and it still bothers me... such is poker.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

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As the number of players in the pot increases the average strength of the winning hand at showdown goes up as well.

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Appreciate the response.

As far as # of players... I'm playing only short-handed tables, and am raising with everything.

Big pairs of course aren't my only problem.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

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In the situation you just described he has 5 outs to beat you, and thus has a 20% chance of beating your unimproved KK by the river.

That's 1 in 5, not exactly rare.

And people suffer from selective memory when it comes to big pairs.

You should be using PokerTracker and you could objectively see how often your big pairs actually win.

Over hundreds of AA hands, they win 75% of the time for me, which is pretty damn good, but 1 out of 4 they are going down and it still bothers me... such is poker.

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I know that was pretty tame as bad beats go... it just happened just now as I was typing is all. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

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Why on earth would you play someplace you were fairly sure was cheating you?


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Not sure I follow you. Are you implying the fact that they have a big clientele is evidence they probably aren't cheating people?

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if you really think you're being cheated, why play there?
i think that was the point of the response. you have many options available to you, why play at one you don't trust? (even though the debate about online rigging makes it pretty clear that it's highly unlikely that a site would do that in the first place)

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Quote:
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Oh, and start listening to that little voice that is telling you the other guy has the straight or the flush.


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I feel I am playing well. A majority of the time I'm getting drawn out on with crap, even after I've bet and raised the whole way.




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if you bet and raise everything maybe your opponents give you less credit because you are a maniac liable to have anything. also, what kinds of odds are you giving them to chase? they might be correct to chase straight draws after you've juiced up the pot for them.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Why on earth would you play someplace you were fairly sure was cheating you?


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Not sure I follow you. Are you implying the fact that they have a big clientele is evidence they probably aren't cheating people?

[/ QUOTE ]

if you really think you're being cheated, why play there?
i think that was the point of the response. you have many options available to you, why play at one you don't trust? (even though the debate about online rigging makes it pretty clear that it's highly unlikely that a site would do that in the first place)

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Quote:
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Oh, and start listening to that little voice that is telling you the other guy has the straight or the flush.


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I feel I am playing well. A majority of the time I'm getting drawn out on with crap, even after I've bet and raised the whole way.




[/ QUOTE ]

if you bet and raise everything maybe your opponents give you less credit because you are a maniac liable to have anything. also, what kinds of odds are you giving them to chase? they might be correct to chase straight draws after you've juiced up the pot for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

About not playing there-- that's probably a good simple point that I need to start considering. I'm playing there now because I'm trying to get all my bonus money out of there.

On betting and raising: I don't mean I'm betting and raising any two cards.... I am playing very tight, rather. I just mean I'm not playing good hands slowly.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

Why so you mention Paradise Poker? Do you find variance there greater than at other sites? I'm having big swings on $2/4.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

I don't wanna start a whole big conspiracy theory brew ha ha where every idiot in the world says a site is rigged and then every die hard "all online gambling/poker everywhere is 100% legit" crowd comes in and tells them how stupid they are etc.

but the reason I said Paradise is because in about 3000 hands at .5/1 I've observed at least 50-60 quads (probably 7 or so of my own).

I'm too lazy to do the math but its highly whacked. Perhaps just a blip in the vast ocean of variance, but regardless I just don't feel comfortable playing there.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

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About not playing there-- that's probably a good simple point that I need to start considering. I'm playing there now because I'm trying to get all my bonus money out of there.


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This has been the downfall of many a player. That bonus money is going to cost you a ton isn't it?

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

Just quit playing that site. I would seriously doubt the site is cheating you. The most likely would be two or more players colluding, and although the sites say they watch for it, I find it hard to believe they can.

Nonetheless, poker is a psychological, for you and your opponents. If some feeling is bothering you, you aren't going to be in the emotional state you need to win.

Don't worry about your bonuses, seems like you've already lost more than they are worth.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

I used to play a lot on interpoker 1-2 to 5-10 pounds

It is not rigged.

Good luck

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

hehe I have the feeling paradise is the only random site, for me the most rigged is stars, close to party [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

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p.s. down about 450-500 BBs over a short time.

[/ QUOTE ]

hint. losing 450-500 BBs in a short time isn't a downswing. it's a sign of you're terrible.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

if you play thousands of hands, some 1:1,000 things will happen.

On Stars, I lost AA three times sequentially in one afternoon, h/u at the flop each time. . . I went 25 hands at a short-handed O/8 table without winning even half a pot. . . . I played 45 hands of holdem without touching a pot -- not even having the blinds folded to me.

All of these are roughly 1% prospects. But they happen. Occasionally we win five pots in a row. Or we take down a 1-outer on the river. Those things happen, too. It's just random flutter.

Look at pi over 10,000 digits and you'll see some digits repeated in strings (3333, 44444, etc.) Odd, but not a lot of folks are posting about pi being rigged. In general, try to play poker for stakes where you can regard the periodic weird card runs as random noise in your monthly win rate.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you play thousands of hands, some 1:1,000 things will happen.

On Stars, I lost AA three times sequentially in one afternoon, h/u at the flop each time. . . I went 25 hands at a short-handed O/8 table without winning even half a pot. . . . I played 45 hands of holdem without touching a pot -- not even having the blinds folded to me.

All of these are roughly 1% prospects. But they happen. Occasionally we win five pots in a row. Or we take down a 1-outer on the river. Those things happen, too. It's just random flutter.

Look at pi over 10,000 digits and you'll see some digits repeated in strings (3333, 44444, etc.) Odd, but not a lot of folks are posting about pi being rigged. In general, try to play poker for stakes where you can regard the periodic weird card runs as random noise in your monthly win rate.

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Well said.

But try calculation the odds of a 400-500 BB downswing for a player who wins 1BB/100 (which would be very low for those ultra soft interpoker players)

This isn't 1% or even 1 in 1000

The other alternative is there is no cap on fixed limit raises on intercasino - maybe the poster capped away 400BB-500BB on one hand.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

[ QUOTE ]


Look at pi over 10,000 digits and you'll see some digits repeated in strings (3333, 44444, etc.) Odd, but not a lot of folks are posting about pi being rigged.

[/ QUOTE ]


What? I didn't know pi was actually rigged! I have to tell my friends! This explains things...

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

In SSHE, there is talk about people's minds assigning patterns to random events. I have a tendency to internalize everything. When I get sucked out on, I look for every possible thing I did wrong. Could I have checkraised the turn and had him face two bets cold? The reverse would be to externalize, ie the site is rigged. The truth of the matter is that neither of these are true (well, sometimes I could have checkraised the turn). Variance happens AND the human mind remembers the bad things. Other day my wife was driving and said she hits every redlight...Only about 2/3 were red, but that was enough for her to forget about the green ones.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

Sounds like a session at Pokerchamps.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
p.s. down about 450-500 BBs over a short time.

[/ QUOTE ]

hint. losing 450-500 BBs in a short time isn't a downswing. it's a sign of you're terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh c'mon. Nobody any good has ever lost $1,000 bucks short-term playing 1-2/2-4? I've won considerably more than that, so I don't feel too bad.

Fact is, this thread HAS helped me look more critically at my game in a way I probably wouldn't have had I not posted it. I think I've figured out the flaws in my game and I've posted two winning sessions in a row now (it's a start).

Thanks to everyone for listening/responding.

I'll agree the site probably isn't rigged. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

I would be very surprised if there weren't game situations where you were facing opponents who had more information than you think they have. It would be fairly simple for any site to separate the RNG from the game software and have it delivered by a 3rd party in real time -- yet I don't know of any site that has gone through the effort. I've written several sweepstakes games where the client has had to purchase a policy for cash prizes, and we used RNG data from a provider who was contracted by both myself and the insurer -- it's fairly simple. The only tests I've seen done on poker sites are for randomness, which doesn't address the issue of when the information is available and to who.

I've never seen a game that was controlled by a single party that was not exploited at some time. Maybe online poker is a first.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

I used to worry about things like that until I learned how to play.

Re: does anyone ever find themselves wondering if a site is rigged?
 

Winning money mean not the site is fair and loosing not it is rigged. For myself and my stats only one site offer fair games. Added you have something like bots...teamplay...calculators...trackers.......so you can say poker is one of the most not fair games online. Sure if you use bots calculators trackers and any promotion you make good money with cheating [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]