Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

First Hand:
Table was getting wack aggressive - most 3 bets were A8, JQs, and 66. Alot of action. I think I am semi-tilted at this point. The preflop call was fishy perhaps? I did not want to fold this preflop with all the aggression that was going on.


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls.

River: (14 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB



Second Hand:
One again - cold call bad?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (15 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, CO calls.

River: (17.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB


How many mistakes???

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

Hand 1) Check turn. You are not value betting anymore (you probably have around 30% equity) and I don't see how you can produce two folds. Also, it leaves you in a situation where if you hit on the river you could get more bets in by c/r.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

Hand 1 I check the turn. You're not folding both of them, and you don't have the best hand.

Hand 2 is a pretty questionable cool call in the SB in a 1/3 structure. In a 1/2 or larger structure, this is a clear call with the two limpers, but I'm not sure about 1/3. Postflop is solid.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

Hand 2) Perhaps lead the flop in order to enlist pretty aggresive BB into protecting your hand for you. Otherwise, I don't see much else you could do.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2) Perhaps lead the flop in order to enlist pretty aggresive BB into protecting your hand for you. Otherwise, I don't see much else you could do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont want to go HU here calling extra bets when I am behind. Check call gets my weak draw at the cheapest price. More people calling = better odds.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

Firstly - KJs is usually a Re-Raise or a fold in EP/MP for me.


Hand 1 -Preflop is OK IMO specially at this table(You say lots of junky hands got 3bet/capped) and the fact you on SB(Cheaper call) but i think you must fold for 2 back to you. Also don't call these if it WILL get 3bet/Capped IMO(Unless they are always wacko hands - Walking into AK/AJ/AA/KK sucks)!

Check the turn, the club dropped your outs(and equity) and with one card to come it has obviously dropped.

Hand 2 - Preflop same as hand 1, SB cheaper - But if you have any idea of it gettign 3bet you want to fold.

Rest is standard(Flop Call is marginal but huge pot/OC/BDFD/BDSD)

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

These hands dont suck, I'm thinking that your tilting a little? When you have a gajillion outs and don't hit, that's not suck, and when you do hit, it's really not suck.

anyways, don't bet the turn in hand one every time. If you had said that they love to come to life on the river I think it can be ok, but otherwise just check and hope you hit your nuts/2nd nuts.

Hand 2 looks ok. I dont like betting the flop, because even if you "clean up" your outs, you're not in better shape.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2) Perhaps lead the flop in order to enlist pretty aggresive BB into protecting your hand for you. Otherwise, I don't see much else you could do.

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I agree with this. Pot is very big, you might be ahead, RRer to your left. I lead out and hope to narrow it down.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 is a pretty questionable cool call in the SB

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Are you saying this because with 2 limpers vs 1 (like in hand 1) the risk of domination is more?

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

#1: I would 3-bet this and make the BB call 2 to see the flop. With what you desribe being 3-bet at this table, your KJs is much better than a lot of hands CO would be raising. Rest of the hand played fine.

#2: With 2 limpers, I think this call is fine. I would lead the flop and hope BB raised to clear out the field.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

I'm not overly worried about the limpers. We're more likely to have them dominated than the reverse. It's more that there's more of a risk of the raiser having us dominated, pluse we're OOP. I'd like cold calling on the button here more than cool calling in the SB, methinks.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2) Perhaps lead the flop in order to enlist pretty aggresive BB into protecting your hand for you. Otherwise, I don't see much else you could do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. Pot is very big, you might be ahead, RRer to your left. I lead out and hope to narrow it down.

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I don't like this lead. If he raises you, you haven't gained much because of how likely you are to be behind (and possibly far behind) his range. Anyone have the link to the thread in Micro (Aaron W.'s maybe) about leading into the PFR?

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

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Hand 2) Perhaps lead the flop in order to enlist pretty aggresive BB into protecting your hand for you. Otherwise, I don't see much else you could do.

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Dont want to go HU here calling extra bets when I am behind. Check call gets my weak draw at the cheapest price. More people calling = better odds.

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You also don't want to be 5-handed with Ax, 6x, and Js3s out against you - especially when you are ahead. I think paying an extra SB (in the form of calling BB's raise) is worth the value you gain by cutting down the field.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

I also think a lead is better in hand 2. Yes, maybe someone is ahead of you on the flop but the pot is huge! Why give small pocket-pairs correct odds to draw? Maybe someone will fold a 5-outer if they face a raise. So absent any reads i think a lead is best. Splashing a bit in big pots is okay.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

I'm at work so I don't have the stove, but if you're at home fire it up and prove me wrong. Give BB a range of hands that would raise your bet. Give the other guys a range of hands that they might both hold and conceivably fold for two cold in this situation. Repeat the calculation without the other guys. Show me that your increase in equity is worth the extra SB investment.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like this lead. If he raises you, you haven't gained much because of how likely you are to be behind (and possibly far behind) his range. Anyone have the link to the thread in Micro (Aaron W.'s maybe) about leading into the PFR?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would really like to see this thread.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

I'll give it a shot, since I made the same claim. I made BB's hand range pretty big, since he 3-bet preflop and may be autobetting or autoraising our flop lead.

I didn't notice earlier that MP folded to BB's flop bet, so I may have to retract my claim, but I'll cook the numbers anyway.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 29.4524 % 25.95% 03.50% { KhJh }
Hand 2: 43.6975 % 39.85% 03.84% { 99+, AJs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+, KJo+ }
Hand 3: 20.2687 % 20.27% 00.00% { 76s }
Hand 4: 06.5814 % 06.24% 00.34% { A9o }</pre><hr />
Our equity after the flop is 29% of 19SB = 5.5SB

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 39.9329 % 35.57% 04.36% { KhJh }
Hand 2: 60.0671 % 55.71% 04.36% { 99+, AJs+, KTs+, QJs, AJo+, KJo+ }
</pre><hr />
With the other two players out, our equity is 40% of 19SB = 7.6SB. We gained 2.1SB by kicking the other two guys out.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

I'll have to owe you that home work since it is getting late here on my side of the pond. I did some quick numbers just to get something and if I didn't totally mess up then hero's equity goes from around 21% to 25% even if only one of the other guys will fold. Is that worth 1 extra SB? I'm not sure yet.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

[ QUOTE ]
With the other two players out, our equity is 40% of 19SB = 7.6SB. We gained 2.1SB by kicking the other two guys out.

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If my logic is flawed here, please correct me. So we gained 2.1 SB here on a play that
1)won't always work, thereby only being worth X * 2.1 SB where X is the percentage of times this does get the other people to fold divided by 100.
2)Costs us an extra SB to do anyway.
So best case scenario (it always works) we gain 1.1 SB. In order for this to be profitable it must work (remove other two players) 48% of the time.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the other two players out, our equity is 40% of 19SB = 7.6SB. We gained 2.1SB by kicking the other two guys out.

[/ QUOTE ]
If my logic is flawed here, please correct me. So we gained 2.1 SB here on a play that
1)won't always work, thereby only being worth X * 2.1 SB where X is the percentage of times this does get the other people to fold divided by 100.
2)Costs us an extra SB to do anyway.
So best case scenario (it always works) we gain 1.1 SB. In order for this to be profitable it must work (remove other two players) 48% of the time.

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About to take a final, so can't comment more, but it costs only 1/3 of a SB, since you win often against that range.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

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I didn't notice earlier that MP folded to BB's flop bet, so I may have to retract my claim, but I'll cook the numbers anyway.


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That MP folds in the real hand for a single bet isn't really relevant in our hypothetical situation. All we know is that the pot is 15SB, the hand is 5-handed, Button raised two limpers and BB put in the last raise pre-flop.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If my logic is flawed here, please correct me. So we gained 2.1 SB here on a play that
1)won't always work, thereby only being worth X * 2.1 SB where X is the percentage of times this does get the other people to fold divided by 100.
2)Costs us an extra SB to do anyway.
So best case scenario (it always works) we gain 1.1 SB. In order for this to be profitable it must work (remove other two players) 48% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct. It really gains us 1.1SB after taking the extra cost into account. We may gain a bit less than that if the play doesn't work, but I would think you wouldn't lose the entire 1.1SB, thus we ultimately gain by leading. Worst case (barring reraises) is everyone stays and it costs us an extra SB, but we already have more than our fair share of equity anyway, so life's still good.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Hand 2) Perhaps lead the flop in order to enlist pretty aggresive BB into protecting your hand for you. Otherwise, I don't see much else you could do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. Pot is very big, you might be ahead, RRer to your left. I lead out and hope to narrow it down.

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I don't like this lead. If he raises you, you haven't gained much because of how likely you are to be behind (and possibly far behind) his range. Anyone have the link to the thread in Micro (Aaron W.'s maybe) about leading into the PFR?

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I don't understad why everyone wants me to lead into the PFR when I am likely behind and have 5 outs. The button raised two limpers and the BB 3-bet the entire field. Hero has KJ on a JQ6 flop. I did not have the best hand before the flop and I still dont have the best hand....

Heres what will happen when I bet: BB will raise. Mabye button will 3 bet....I will call 1 or 1.5 BB with my 5 outs. Turn Blanks. Check. Bet. Call. Check. Ick. 3BB chasing 5 outs.

If I check: I draw the turn for 1/2 BB to hit my 5 outs against 5 opponents. I might get to check raise or I might hit a J and have someone with a worse J playing back at me. I might hit a K and get to check raise against AK.

Re: Two KJs blind hands that suck.
 

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I don't understad why everyone wants me to lead into the PFR when I am likely behind and have 5 outs.

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I don't understand why you spent the first paragraph of your OP discussing the LAGginess of the table but now give the preflop raisers so much credit for their hands.

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Heres what will happen when I bet: BB will raise. Mabye button will 3 bet....I will call 1 or 1.5 BB with my 5 outs. Turn Blanks. Check. Bet. Call. Check. Ick. 3BB chasing 5 outs.

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I think this is a bit pessimistic, but maybe you're right. I'm only considering the table read you gave. However, if you know the cards and action of future streets, you're probably better off open folding [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
If I check: I draw the turn for 1/2 BB to hit my 5 outs against 5 opponents. I might get to check raise or I might hit a J and have someone with a worse J playing back at me. I might hit a K and get to check raise against AK.

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True, you could check raise if someone catches smaller than you, but it's more likely that they'll catch bigger than you. Someone with AK has more outs to an A or T than a K. Someone may be playing a smaller J, but this is a big pot and you want it now! Don't give anyone a reasonable chance to draw out on you when you're ahead. And I think you're ahead enough to be proactive about dragging this pot.

I think leading and check/calling are close, but I think leading has more value. This is just my opinion.