It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

This hand definitely made me smile. I think it's audacious ((misspelt?)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button ($65.15)
Hero ($100.27)
BB ($99.88)
UTG ($47.70)
MP ($81.62)
CO ($26.77)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Hero (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($2) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, BB folds, CO folds, Button calls $2.

River: ($6) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, Button calls $10.

Final Pot: $30

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

Why'd you c/r the river?

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

It's a great card to bluff big at if opponent has air.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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It's a great card to bluff big at if opponent has air.

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He doesn't call if he has air. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

If he has air that is a great card for my opponent to try and bluff me out.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

wouldve potted the river.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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If he has air that is a great card for my opponent to try and bluff me out.

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WHy on earth do you think he has air? Bet the river, an A or Q will call. These hands will not bet the river though.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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It's a great card to let an A or Q have a free showdown

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FYP

FPS is not +EV at these levels. Even at mid-level it is marginal at best and highly villain dependent. Checking this river is not winning the most when you are ahead. If villain will bluff into a 4-straight board then I don't think you need to be very tricky to take his stack.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

Do u often limp OOP with hands of this type? if so I NEED your postflop play.

Then again maybe I am just pedantic and unimaginative to not come in with this ever, even for half-price.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

I never limp unsuited connectors but I do complete the SB with a variety of hands.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

Too many posts!!! If you HAVE to post this many posts at one time, don't post the LC ones!

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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I never limp unsuited connectors but I do complete the SB with a variety of hands.

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You realize this is --EV, right?

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

Why do you say that?

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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Why do you say that?

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Because it's true.

Do you have Pokertracker? Look at your VPiP from the small blind along with your sb win rate. For almost every player the blinds are money losing positions. The goal should be to minimize losses form these positions, not look for marginal situations to try to hit the jackpot.

Why put any money into the pot in the worst post-flop position unless you have a premium holding? It leads to many marginal situations so that a half-bet winds up costing you 20bb.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

Of course players lose money from the small blind. When referring to poker tracker you look not at how much you win with a hand but how little you lose. If you are losing less than the small blind it is good to play the hand.

Why play from the small blind with less than premium hands? Implied odds.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course players lose money from the small blind. When referring to poker tracker you look not at how much you win with a hand but how little you lose. If you are losing less than the small blind it is good to play the hand.

Why play from the small blind with less than premium hands? Implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you will play K7o from the small blind but fold it UTG? You have always 'implied odds' to play any two against one deep stacked caller, but why would you? You are really missing the point here.

Maybe someone else can explain this better, because I think playing too many hands from the blinds is a leak most of us have. I think AJ or Beavens started a thread a couple of days ago that had a good discussion. I suck at search, but I will try to find it.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

This is definitely worth exploring, becuase I do play alot of hands from the SB. Mind you there is a big difference between 65o (which I will play) 35s (which I will play) and K7o (which I won't).

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

my mistake is calling decent holdings from the blinds and overplaying top pair in pot that wasnt raised pf.. always forget someone could flop the 2pr, straight, etc.

going to try to learn to keep those pots small.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is definitely worth exploring, because I do play alot of hands from the SB. Mind you there is a big difference between 65o (which I will play) 35s (which I will play) and K7o (which I won't).

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I generally will not play anything out of the blinds that I would not play UTG. In fact, if I am playing from the blinds, I am raising 50% or more of the time to get it HU where being OOP is not as big an issue.

To win with hands like 35s and 65o you need a perfect flop. You also need someone to make a second best hand to pay you off. You are not getting AK, AQ et al to give you much action on 347 flops.

The problem is how do you play a flop like 623 where you have TPNK? Check/call? Bet (do you call a raise)? What if the flop is A65 and UTG raises you all-in? Your VPiP from the sb should be close or slightly higher than your overall VPiP. Being OOP is a huge detriment without a premium holding.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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This is definitely worth exploring, because I do play alot of hands from the SB. Mind you there is a big difference between 65o (which I will play) 35s (which I will play) and K7o (which I won't).

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I generally will not play anything out of the blinds that I would not play UTG. In fact, if I am playing from the blinds, I am raising 50% or more of the time to get it HU where being OOP is not as big an issue.

To win with hands like 35s and 65o you need a perfect flop. You also need someone to make a second best hand to pay you off. You are not getting AK, AQ et al to give you much action on 347 flops.

The problem is how do you play a flop like 623 where you have TPNK? Check/call? Bet (do you call a raise)? What if the flop is A65 and UTG raises you all-in? Your VPiP from the sb should be close or slightly higher than your overall VPiP. Being OOP is a huge detriment without a premium holding.

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Its a huge detriment, but preflop you have great position and its half price to play? Why would you ever fold an excellent drawing hand here, like 109s or J10s which you clearly would not limp with UTG?

That is -EV.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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This is definitely worth exploring, because I do play alot of hands from the SB. Mind you there is a big difference between 65o (which I will play) 35s (which I will play) and K7o (which I won't).

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I generally will not play anything out of the blinds that I would not play UTG. In fact, if I am playing from the blinds, I am raising 50% or more of the time to get it HU where being OOP is not as big an issue.

To win with hands like 35s and 65o you need a perfect flop. You also need someone to make a second best hand to pay you off. You are not getting AK, AQ et al to give you much action on 347 flops.

The problem is how do you play a flop like 623 where you have TPNK? Check/call? Bet (do you call a raise)? What if the flop is A65 and UTG raises you all-in? Your VPiP from the sb should be close or slightly higher than your overall VPiP. Being OOP is a huge detriment without a premium holding.

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Its a huge detriment, but preflop you have great position and its half price to play? Why would you ever fold an excellent drawing hand here, like 109s or J10s which you clearly would not limp with UTG?

That is -EV.

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You are priced in to see the flop, but can you fold if you hit top pair without a straight or flush draw? If so, then I see no problem with calling those.

The problem is that most of us will bet or call down in TPNK situations. I think you lose more in these marginal situations than you win when you hit the jackpot.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

There is a huge difference between UTG and SB, and that is you are close to closing the action preflop. You wouldn't limp many hands utg because of risk of being raised. I agree, of course, that hands like 65 and 35 make much much better hands to complete with than something like K7.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is a huge difference between UTG and SB, and that is you are close to closing the action preflop. You wouldn't limp many hands utg because of risk of being raised. I agree, of course, that hands like 65 and 35 make much much better hands to complete with than something like K7.

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Your statement is correct assuming that someone who completes with 35 is capable of optimal flop play. I think many of us (myself included) make our biggest mistakes post-flop.

Folding too much in the small blind is a much smaller leak than playing poorly post-flop after completing.

I will fold 35s in the sb all day because there is only one flop (A24) that I am sure to always be ahead and get some action.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

SB is much different from UTG in that you have almost no risk of being raised after you put money in while from UTG, you are probably likely to be raised.

This is how I view the small blind...I compare it to playing a 16 vs a dealer 7 in blackjack. You know you are a favorite to lose the hand, but if you surrender, you lose half your bet so it's actually less -EV to try to play the hand.

Or if you have 88 vs a dealer ten, the correct play is to split and put MORE money into the pot, because the -EV for each bet with an 8 up against a 10 is less than the -EV for each bet with a 16 up against a 10.

Anyway, I don't know how well you can compare blackjack and poker, but I know the SB is -EV no matter how you play, but I think by defending it with a wider range of hands, it is less -EV than it is just by surrendering it. That said, I won't complete with anything, but my SB completing range is much bigger than my UTG range by far.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Of course players lose money from the small blind. When referring to poker tracker you look not at how much you win with a hand but how little you lose. If you are losing less than the small blind it is good to play the hand.

Why play from the small blind with less than premium hands? Implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you will play K7o from the small blind but fold it UTG? You have always 'implied odds' to play any two against one deep stacked caller, but why would you? You are really missing the point here.

Maybe someone else can explain this better, because I think playing too many hands from the blinds is a leak most of us have. I think AJ or Beavens started a thread a couple of days ago that had a good discussion. I suck at search, but I will try to find it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious to know what hands you limp from the SB. With 1 limper? 2 or more limpers?
I am trying to tighten up, but I'm not sure what hands to muck. Do you play stuff like A2-A9o with 1 limper? I still call with 54s+,64s+, 54o+, A2s-A9s+, Kxs+ (not sure if this is bad), any two broadways. I'll play suited and connected stuff with lots of limpers and much with &lt;= 2 limpers. I think you need to semibluff a lot on the flop in 3-handed pots to make stuff like 64s profitable.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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I'm curious to know what hands you limp from the SB. With 1 limper? 2 or more limpers?
I am trying to tighten up, but I'm not sure what hands to muck. Do you play stuff like A2-A9o with 1 limper? I still call with 54s+,64s+, 54o+, A2s-A9s+, Kxs+ (not sure if this is bad), any two broadways. I'll play suited and connected stuff with lots of limpers and much with &lt;= 2 limpers. I think you need to semibluff a lot on the flop in 3-handed pots to make stuff like 64s profitable.

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If pot is raised I'm calling with a pp or raising a premium holding.
1 limper - see above
2 limpers and bb is passive - see above, SCs to 67, and AQs to A8s.
3 or more limpers - same as previous. Throw in A7s-A2 and one gaps to J9s. I hate Kxs because you make too many second best hands with it.

The hardest part is playing the hand OOP. You have to be able to lead any decent flop and fold to aggression. The biggest problem I have is playing T9s and you get a flop of 963r lead out and get raised by the 45/6 villain. You know has probably has TP and trash, but does his trash beat your trash?

My question is how much value are you giving up if folded all but the top 10 starting hands in sb? I'm guessing it is minimal. As you know, the higher up go, position becomes more important. I just don't wan to get into the habit of being a loose caller in the sb, because we have all experienced the situation where a half-bet costs us our stack.

Now if the button is trying to steal too often I will play back with a wider range. If it is limped to me, I am apt to raise any two to steal the bb. The normal situation of two limpers and me holding 34s will see me fold every time. Check your PT database and see how much you have won playing SCs out of the SB. I would interested to see if somebody has more than a couple of SCs that are reasonably profitable.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

So you are folding AQ-ATs in the SB with 1 limper? I dunno, but I think I like your strategy better than mine. I play stuff like Q8s and 97o. Probably a bad habit from limit poker. BTW, what is your SB VP %?

I would be interested in seeing someone with a good sample's pokertracker positional winrate stats. I am currently winning from every position except the blinds.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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So you are folding AQ-ATs in the SB with 1 limper? I dunno, but I think I like your strategy better than mine. I play stuff like Q8s and 97o. Probably a bad habit from limit poker. BTW, what is your SB VP %?

I would be interested in seeing someone with a good sample's pokertracker positional winrate stats. I am currently winning from every position except the blinds.

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Yea, I would call with AQ-ATs as well. That was an oversight.

I don't have PT at work, but here is my latest recollection. I have about 75k hands in my database (30k before I started to get a clue) and my overall VPiP in the sb is 10-15% higher than my VPiP of 24%. When I first looked at it a month or two ago it was around 50%.

Since I started focusing on this over the last 30 days or so it is down to something close to 30% which I still think may be high, but I don't have enough data to say I am comfortable making a conclusion.

I know I may be tighter than I need to be, but I just don't see where I am giving up a lot of value by folding hands that will get me in tough spots. (AA gets me in enough tough spots, so if I can avoid getting in one with 56s OOP, then all the better.)

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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There is a huge difference between UTG and SB, and that is you are close to closing the action preflop. You wouldn't limp many hands utg because of risk of being raised. I agree, of course, that hands like 65 and 35 make much much better hands to complete with than something like K7.

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Your statement is correct assuming that someone who completes with 35 is capable of optimal flop play. I think many of us (myself included) make our biggest mistakes post-flop.

Folding too much in the small blind is a much smaller leak than playing poorly post-flop after completing.

I will fold 35s in the sb all day because there is only one flop (A24) that I am sure to always be ahead and get some action.

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Here are my thoughts, sir. I will never pass up on possible +EV situations because I don't trust my postflop skills enough. If you think that you are making mistakes with certain hands, you should address them on an individual basis, when the problem hands arise. I know for a fact that if you plan on playing higher stakes short handed and/or deep stacked, you will have to get comfortable with playing deceptive hands like small suited connectors and gappers, often OOP as well.

I agree with you that many people at this level WILL make mistakes with the given hands, and tough decisions will come up, but thats poker. A good player takes advantage of those spots by making the right play, where a weaker player would have made that mistake. Instead of avoiding the situations, they should work on their post-flop play, post the hand they had trouble with, and get better at handling said situation.

As far as flops with small suited connectors and gappers, I am happy to see: two pair, trips, quads, boat, straight, flush, pair + flush draw, straight + flush draw, and often weaker draws that I get to hit cheap such as OESD, and flush. I play these hands for far more than for flopped nut straight value. And I WILL get action from people when I have them killed often enough to warrant completing and seeing a flop.

My bottom line: Waiting for and only playing premium hands from these positions may work at these stakes, and may save you some difficult decisions postflop, but I feel that you are missing many +EV spots by doing this, and also missing the knowledge you could be gaining ,as far as postflop play and decision-making, while its still cheap.

Results :
 

Villian had A8

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

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Here are my thoughts, sir. I will never pass up on possible +EV situations because I don't trust my postflop skills enough.

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I am waiting to see evidence that it is +EV to call with 23s with one limper. So far, no one can show me any math. I am willing to concede I may be wrong, by I am not convinced it costs me any more than .1 PTBB by folding.


[ QUOTE ]
If you think that you are making mistakes with certain hands, you should address them on an individual basis, when the problem hands arise.

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Agreed. I don't have problems with these hands because I do not play them. Again, if someone with 100k hands can show me they are positve in the sb with 50% VPiP you are advocating I am willing to consider that I may be wrong.

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I know for a fact that if you plan on playing higher stakes short handed and/or deep stacked, you will have to get comfortable with playing deceptive hands like small suited connectors and gappers, often OOP as well.

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We are not talking about high stakes, HU or deep stacks. This is SSNL. I play plenty of NL $200, some $400 and occassionl HU. Your points are valid, but the tactics that work at these levels will not be as effective at NL $10 and NL $25.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that many people at this level WILL make mistakes with the given hands, and tough decisions will come up, but thats poker. A good player takes advantage of those spots by making the right play, where a weaker player would have made that mistake. Instead of avoiding the situations, they should work on their post-flop play, post the hand they had trouble with, and get better at handling said situation.

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I just think that at this level, avoiding the chance to a make a mistake is better than developing bad habits. Why not perfect playing OOP withhands like AK and AA instead of 46 and 68? You can work on the same skills but in an environment where you still have a good chance to win even if you make a small mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
As far as flops with small suited connectors and gappers, I am happy to see: two pair, trips, quads, boat, straight, flush, pair + flush draw, straight + flush draw, and often weaker draws that I get to hit cheap such as OESD, and flush. I play these hands for far more than for flopped nut straight value. And I WILL get action from people when I have them killed often enough to warrant completing and seeing a flop.

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Unless you flop a miracle any thinking villain is going to overcharge you to hit your draw and fold to your push when you do hit it. Maybe not at these levels, but it definitely happens at the 'higher' levels.

[ QUOTE ]
My bottom line: Waiting for and only playing premium hands from these positions may work at these stakes, and may save you some difficult decisions postflop, but I feel that you are missing many +EV spots by doing this, and also missing the knowledge you could be gaining ,as far as postflop play and decision-making, while its still cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your arguments work much if we are are talking about limit where you are getting correct odds. I am not a big fan of calculating implied odds out of the blinds with 23 and 45 because who is going to pay you off when you hit?

I think your post is well thought and I enjoy the debate, but I hope we can agree that we are talking about something that has at most maybe a .1 or so impact in terms of PTBB?

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

[ QUOTE ]

I am waiting to see evidence that it is +EV to call with 23s with one limper. So far, no one can show me any math. I am willing to concede I may be wrong, by I am not convinced it costs me any more than .1 PTBB by folding.

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When did I make any claim about 23s with 1 limper? You are taking a very far extreme of my point and illustrating it with a bad example.

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Agreed. I don't have problems with these hands because I do not play them. Again, if someone with 100k hands can show me they are positve in the sb with 50% VPiP you are advocating I am willing to consider that I may be wrong.

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I never claimed what the "right" VPIP from the small blind should be, so your 50% VPIP claim is unfounded.

[ QUOTE ]
We are not talking about high stakes, HU or deep stacks. This is SSNL. I play plenty of NL $200, some $400 and occassionl HU. Your points are valid, but the tactics that work at these levels will not be as effective at NL $10 and NL $25.

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Tactics? On the contrary, people tend to overplay their hands more at these stakes, giving me much bigger payoffs in many more situations. The only thing that may go down is my fold equity on semi-bluffs with my huge draws, and I rarely care too much about that as they are often calling with hands I am a favorite against anyway.


[ QUOTE ]
I just think that at this level, avoiding the chance to a make a mistake is better than developing bad habits. Why not perfect playing OOP withhands like AK and AA instead of 46 and 68? You can work on the same skills but in an environment where you still have a good chance to win even if you make a small mistake.

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Why not playing perfect OOP with ALL of the hands you mentioned? I think that is a much better goal to strive for. Passing up +EV situations because you aren't confident in your post-flop play = bad habit.

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Unless you flop a miracle any thinking villain is going to overcharge you to hit your draw and fold to your push when you do hit it. Maybe not at these levels, but it definitely happens at the 'higher' levels.

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It takes far less than a miracle flop. They can't really overcharge me when I am a favorite to win the hand on the flop and that is where all the money is going in, as is often the case with my big draws. The case is the same at the higher levels, except that my fold equity is often higher.



[ QUOTE ]

I think your arguments work much if we are are talking about limit where you are getting correct odds. I am not a big fan of calculating implied odds out of the blinds with 23 and 45 because who is going to pay you off when you hit?

I think your post is well thought and I enjoy the debate, but I hope we can agree that we are talking about something that has at most maybe a .1 or so impact in terms of PTBB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, the hands you list are on the extreme spectrum, while for arguing your side you use hands such as AA and KK. Lets look at a hand like 65s. Do you really think that it takes a miracle flop to get paid off with that hand? Do you think for example that you aren't going to make a good profit from an overplaying donkey at 25$ NL who has KJ or KQ on a board of K65? Or someone overplaying their 99 on a board of 652? Or perhaps a spot such as A34 with two of your suit, one being the ace, where you bet-3bet all in and get called by top pair? The situations are endless, and I think the impact is far more substantial than you may think.

Once again, avoiding the situations isn't going to help you get better at dealing with them. Getting better at dealing with the situations is, however, going to make you a better poker player.

Re: It aint easy being a pimp but someone\'s gotta do it (LCish)
 

Lead out with PSB on river