I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

I've been playing for about four years now. Variance happens. [censored] happens. Losing happens. It hurts, I know. I know it hurts more to lose than it feels good to win. I know I tilt sometimes, and it costs me. I know many of my weaknesses, but I can't get over them. I know I don't stop when I should, I know my ego screws me, I know that feeling of tension in my wrists when I've tilted too much and the money wont be coming back anytime soon.

I've done all that and posted it here before and asked the inevitable "how do you deal with the swings" and I've heard the answers of "that's variance," and "don't post bad beats," and "take some time off," and "tighten up." I've posted all that and heard all that ...

There are no new questions from me, and I wont get any new answers, so why do I still feel compelled to bang my head on a wall and post "how do you deal with the variance" and make the frustration stop and ask all the same old questions all over again.

This morning I got stuck in a good game, and couldn't get un-stuck, and then all the games turned bad but I couldn't leave despite knowing full and well the games were bad. So I got stuck worse, and it stings — a small amount by any reasonable player's standards, 50 BB in 6-max is nothing, but I still hate it.

Four years, and I still hate the swings. Still have the same questions, still know the same answers, still just want someone to say "it happens."

Twelve years old. Still.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

It happens.

Also, if 50 BBs is upsetting you (I totally understand, I play $5.50 STTs and get upset when I lose 5 buy-ins), try not looking. Buy in for some really weird, high number (I dunno what stakes you play, but if it's 10/20, buy in for like 6845 or something) so it's hard for you to insta-calculate your session's profit/loss, and only look at the cashier at the end of the month.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

[ QUOTE ]
look at the cashier at the end of the month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are there really people who can do this? Because this seems insane to me — I monitor my bankroll swings like I have OCD.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know many of my weaknesses, but I can't get over them. I know I don't stop when I should, I know my ego screws me, I know that feeling of tension in my wrists when I've tilted too much and the money wont be coming back anytime soon.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ypur ego does not screw you. You do it to yourself. All poker players screw themselves sometimes. Take it easy on yourself.

You say that you can't get over your weaknesses. That is why- because you think you cant. You just answered your own question.

There was a time for me at the table when I almost always knew exactly how much + or - I was doing in a particular session.

I can tell you are a good player because you are blaming yourself as opposed to a fish who blames his cards/other players.

I started working out again and I cut out processed sugars and I started playing much better. Also time spent in other activities besides poker works great for my game. Start making poker fun again and you will triumph again.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

Lastnight I played four tables. I bought in for a different amount on each table, and then shuffled them around my screen. I forbade myself from checking the cashier, and everytime I lost a hand I just forgot about it and sometimes even pretended that I had just won. I forced myself to not think about how much I was up or down, and I played some very very good poker.

I can totally relate to checking the cashier every minute though.

I think I picked up the habit when I was bonuswhoring on absolute poker, because I would constantly check my points and then do some quick mental arithmetic to figure out my available balance, how much I was up/down, etc. It was a huge distraction.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

There's a program floating around the software forum called "tiltblocker". It blacks out your chip count at the table. People seem to like it. I haven't tried it though. I would prefer if I could accomplish this without using a program, because it would help my live game too.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

[ QUOTE ]
and then all the games turned bad but I couldn't leave despite knowing full and well the games were bad. So I got stuck worse

[/ QUOTE ]

This indicates a discipline problem that goes beyond "simple" variance. Game selection should be a big part of any winning player's edge, and that includes the discipline to leave a formerly good game gone bad when you are stuck. The net is too big and there are too many tables available even at lower levels to play on bad tables.

And you also should have the discipline to take care of your bankroll and drop down when on a losing streak to re-evaluate your game and not damage your roll severely even if you aren't playing bad.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
look at the cashier at the end of the month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are there really people who can do this? Because this seems insane to me — I monitor my bankroll swings like I have OCD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just instead of looking at your bankroll, don't look at your bankroll. This is perfectly fine provided that

1) You know yourself to be a winning player at your current limit.
2) You're adequately bankrolled.
3) You're not experimenting with new strategies.
4) You don't want to move up within the next month.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Variance happens

[/ QUOTE ]

Might make for a good bumper sticker.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

I think what you're describing is the difference between "being aware" of something and actually "knowing" it.

Because of my extreme competiveness and wanting to win so badly, whatever I was doing, I used to go on tilt when something went bad. Missing an easy bank shot in snooker, chunking a chip from off the edge of the green - I'd explode. I always knew it happened to somebody else, just not me. I was "aware" these things happened.

One day, somehow, I began to realize I wasn't doing it as much. I was beginning to "accept" that even I was capable of screwing up. My head was starting to "know" it was possible. It was just the way things were/are.

When I was able to see how tilting was making things worse, I began not tilting. Things got better. Life was/is easier.

Today, the Chris Ferguson commercial about "thinking about the next hand" makes perfect sense to me. I get sucked out on; I miss a leaner; I have one curl out on me - I immediately go to the next thing. That's something I can do something about. The past is just exactly that.

Everyone knows Doyle Brunson won the '76 WSOP with the T2. Not many know Jesse Alto finished 2nd. When a SI reporter was leaving, he passed the card room and saw Jesse in a game. He walked over and asked him how he could be sitting there playing after he'd just lost a shot at 200k+. Jesse looked up at him and said, "That game's over." And turned back to the table. That's one helluva perspective.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

Assuming you're multitabling, you may want to try what has really worked well for me. I always buy in with the same amount at every table I play. Whenever I lose 50% of my buyin at any table, REGARDLESS OF HOW GOOD THE GAME IS, I leave that table the next time I have to post a blind.

There are many who have told me that it's not right to leave a "good" game. However, I have decided that it's NOT a good game if I have lost 50% of my buyin. It doesn't make much difference to me WHY I've lost, only that I HAVE lost. There could be many reasons that I've lost 50% on that table. I could ERRONEOUSLY believe it was a good table, the variance at that table is killing me, etc. Rather than fret about it, I just leave and open a new table and usually that does it for me.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's a program floating around the software forum called "tiltblocker". It blacks out your chip count at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could see this being good in all cases except the one where you have less than 12BB and are unaware of the fact that you could be all-in by the end of the hand, thereby changing the correct strategy.

EDIT: I was playing the other day and wasn't paying any attention to my stacks on any table. I flopped tripped queens and was very disappointed when my opponent raised me on the turn and I suddenly realized I could only call half a BB.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming you're multitabling, you may want to try what has really worked well for me. I always buy in with the same amount at every table I play. Whenever I lose 50% of my buyin at any table, REGARDLESS OF HOW GOOD THE GAME IS, I leave that table the next time I have to post a blind.

There are many who have told me that it's not right to leave a "good" game. However, I have decided that it's NOT a good game if I have lost 50% of my buyin. It doesn't make much difference to me WHY I've lost, only that I HAVE lost. There could be many reasons that I've lost 50% on that table. I could ERRONEOUSLY believe it was a good table, the variance at that table is killing me, etc. Rather than fret about it, I just leave and open a new table and usually that does it for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really bad advice. Losing half your initial buy in means nothing in and of itself. Don't leave a good game.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

That depends on how big the original buy-in was.
If you buy-in for 200BB, losing 50% is a big deal

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

If your problem is staying too long in unprofitable games, I have a fun stop-gap measure that might help.
Randomly changing tables when you lose. Now suppose you are on a table and you are stuck 30BB. On the next orbit change the table if you see a 2 in your hand. If you are stuck 40 BB, change table if you get 2 or 3 in your hand the next orbit.
If you are stuck 50BB, change tables if you get 2 3 or 4 in your hand the next orbit.
You can adjust the loss amount and the cards that trigger table change as you please. It could relieve your frustration if you turn your loss into another game.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is really bad advice. Losing half your initial buy in means nothing in and of itself. Don't leave a good game.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not good advice, but it's not terrible.

Your facts:
1. You have some reason to believe the game is good
2. You are down 12BB+

Possible reasons:
1. The game isn't as good as you thought it was
2. Normal variance

With the stat overlay, sometimes you will still know that the game is good (and that your seat is good(!)), then there's no excuse to leave, however, if you are second guessing that the game is actually good, might as well join another one you think is good.

Another thing to consider is that when you're losing, the game may become worse for you. People start to play differently against you, and when your opponents deviate from their original play, you know less about them, and the game becomes less profitable.

Just because you thought a game was good when you sat down, doesn't mean you should always think it's good. Leave if you decide your judgement was off. Don't leave if it's only because you're losing. Some of my biggest wins were on good tables I knew were good that I started down 20BB.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

uhh... no

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

"Twelve years old. Still."

Wrong.

If you were 12, you wouldn't have any of the problems you are having now. You wouldn't get into funks over and over while questioning your own worth. That's because you wouldn't question your own worth. You wouldn't deny your weaknesses and frailties. That's because you wouldn't even know that you are weak and frail. To be 12 is to be free. Grow young. Return to the joy of ignorance and exploration. Be who you are, as you are. You're a wreck, sometimes. And that's okay.

Tommy

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

I'll give this some thought and some trial too. However, your point about "people starting to play differently against you" is major, and certainly can cause more problems at that table.

The stop loss "method" I use works for me, and that's why I use it, although I certainly understand the arguments against it and why it may not be right for many. I've learned that there is nothing wrong with running away from a situation which I thought was good but is proving NOT to be so (assuming, of course, that I believe my play decisions to be correct).

After playing over 100k hands, I began to track results at tables where I had lost 50% of my buyin. From that point on, i.e. from the point where I had lost 50%, my results were absolutely terrible EVEN THOUGH I BELIEVED THE TABLE TO BE A GOOD ONE and even though I wasn't on tilt and even though I believed I was making good poker decisions.

I tracked these results over 50,000 hands and decided, at that point, that I would use a stop loss method even though I was fully aware of the arguments against such a method. The bottom line is that this worked for me in that my results over the next 50,000 hands are very, very different by simply leaving the table and opening another and tracking results at the newly opened table.

My take on this is that either:
1. My table selection was, in fact, poor even though I didn't believe that to be the case.

OR

2. My table image (after losing) was such that players began to take shots at me (similar to what you said).

In any case, the results were markedly different. I felt that 50,000 hands was an adequate sample size for my experiment and I believe that this method works fine for me.

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

Self-control/discipline is just as important as raw skill in being a successful poker player. Look at Stuey Ungar. He was God's greatest gift to poker but he was always going broke (both at the table and away)because he couldn't control his urges.
Here are some articles that I think are relevant to your problem. The first article is Lederer talking about how meditation helps him at the tables, while the second is an essay about cognitive dissonance.

http://www.howardlederer.com/howard-...-article9.html
http://www.yetiarts.com/aaron/science/cogdiss.shtml

Re: I think I\'m still 12 years old...
 

Some more on cognitive dissonance from Wikipedia.

"Cognitive dissonance is a state of opposition between cognitions. For the purpose of cognitive consistency theory, cognitions are defined as being an attitude, emotion, belief or value, although more recent theories, such as ecological cognition suggest that they can also be a goal, plan, or an interest. In brief, the theory of cognitive dissonance holds that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the human mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to minimize the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions...The more well-known form of dissonance, however, is post-decisional dissonance. Many studies have shown that people with compulsive disorders like gambling will subjectively reinforce decisions or commitments they have already made. In one simple experiment, experimenters found that bettors at a horse track believed bets were more likely to succeed immediately after being placed. According to the hypothesis, the possibility of being wrong is dissonance-arousing, so people will change their perceptions to make their decisions seem better."