ethics - do you point this out?
 

Ok, heads up in home game. A 3rd friend is dealing.

We get all in on a 88x flop with 2 hearts. I have A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in my hand. My opponent has 87.

He has slightly more chips than me so essentially this hand is for the win.

The turn is a blank and the river comes 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Giving him a boat and me a flush. I'm about to say that that's the worst card that could have come, when he has a mini-spazz and ships me the pot. The dealer is also oblivious and has in fact started collecting the cards.

Do you say anything?

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

yes ;o

Definitely in a home game...i have no reason to want to steal my friends money.

In a more professional game though, that might be different...I may just keep my mouth shut and let them try and realise it themselves.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, heads up in home game. A 3rd friend is dealing.

We get all in on a 88x flop with 2 hearts. I have A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in my hand. My opponent has 87.

He has slightly more chips than me so essentially this hand is for the win.

The turn is a blank and the river comes 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Giving him a boat and me a flush. I'm about to say that that's the worst card that could have come, when he has a mini-spazz and ships me the pot. The dealer is also oblivious and has in fact started collecting the cards.

Do you say anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if he later recounts the hand to himself and realises you screwed him then what will they think of you. Tell them the truth, for a selfish reason.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
he has a mini-spazz and ships me the pot.

The dealer is also oblivious and has in fact started collecting the cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry John...

-ZEN

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yes
Definitely in a home game...i have no reason to want to steal my friends money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

In a home game with friends, point this out. You look like the hero. In a home game with enemies, different story.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

I can't believe what I'm hearing!
You should point it out at a friendly home game because he's your friend or because he might figure it out later and be upset with you. But otherwise, it is OK to take the pot if the person is not your friend or if you're in a real card room?

These sound like nice rationalizations for poor behavior but they are certainly not ethical justifications for it. Not pointing this out is the same as stealing and therefore is almost never ethically justified. The case presented here is a slam dunk. There is no ethical dilemma here.

I don't know the original poster personally but I get the impression that he already knew the answer to his question and I hope that he is only looking for validation that he did the right thing. But it could be that he did the wrong thing and is now looking for help rationalizing his poor behavior.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

This is very unlikely to happen in a real cardroom, as the dealer knows the hand rankings. At the same time, it is your job, not mine, to know the rules of poker when you sit down to play it. And you are right there is no ethical dilemma here, but that doesn't mean that there is no dilemma on which choice to make given the situation.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

LOL the same thing happend to me in a game and i just went by who i liked better the other guy that lost and got the chips or the guy that actually won. Its not your fault. No ethics involved. Poker is about lying and winning money. Dont say anything baby

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

Bad,

You should point it out. Both because it is the responsibility of all players to ensure the integrity of the game, and because if the viallain realizes later on, you are [censored].

TONY

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is very unlikely to happen in a real cardroom, as the dealer knows the hand rankings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be too sure! I've witnessed dealers pushing the pot to the wrong player many times. I'm certain that others have seen this as well. You must remain vigilant at the tables even when there is a dealer present.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

Bad advice, bad opinion, bad attitude

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is very unlikely to happen in a real cardroom, as the dealer knows the hand rankings.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen it happen on several ocassions.

[ QUOTE ]
At the same time, it is your job, not mine, to know the rules of poker when you sit down to play it.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not a case of somebody folding a full house because they thought it didn't beat a flush. It is a simple oversight that everyone (you, me and professional dealers included) is capable of making.
Also, this reeks of yet another rationalization for immoral behavior. It is the same rationalization that con artists, card mechanics and other card cheats use to rationalize their behavior; "It's the sucker's fault for being such a sucker."

[ QUOTE ]
And you are right there is no ethical dilemma here, but that doesn't mean that there is no dilemma on which choice to make given the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I think it is an easy decision. You might think it's hard for a second or two beacuse it would be so easy to do the wrong thing. But if you think about it for 3 seconds or more, you'd realize that it is just as easy to do the right thing.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its not your fault.

[/ QUOTE ]
It has nothing to do with fault.

[ QUOTE ]
No ethics involved.

[/ QUOTE ]
Only if ethics are a mystery to you.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is about lying and winning money.

[/ QUOTE ]
This might be what poker is about for you but I think there are probably a few million poker players that would disagree that this is what poker is about.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

Anyone here who is saying its SO obvious what they would do is only saying it because they don't have $400 in chips shoved in front of them right now.

Most ppl would at least THINK of keeping the money

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone here who is saying its SO obvious what they would do is only saying it because they don't have $400 in chips shoved in front of them right now.

Most ppl would at least THINK of keeping the money

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll take it one further and say that most people would actually KEEP THE MONEY despite the fact that they KNOW IT'S WRONG.

I'm not saying that you wouldn't be tempted to keep the money. In this particular case, doing the wrong thing would be much easier than doing the right thing, since the wrong thing nets you a tourney win and I don't know how much cash. But whether there is $4 at stake or $4 million, the right thing to do is still obvious - it's just more difficult to do when you have $4 million at stake rather than $40.

In fact, when it comes to ethics, the more difficult it is to do the right thing, the more value it has. That is, you don't get any brownie points for NOT robbing a bank on your way to work today, because NOT robbing a bank is a hell of a lot easier than robbing one.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, this reeks of yet another rationalization for immoral behavior. It is the same rationalization that con artists, card mechanics and other card cheats use to rationalize their behavior; "It's the sucker's fault for being such a sucker."

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there something wrong with this rationalization? And I don't even need to rationalize it. I had no problem cheating in school, didn't need to tell myself it was ok. You (or maybe not you) and others have no problem using pokertracker, pokerace and datamining to get an edge on players, though they might not want to play with you if they knew you had their stats from 1000 hands. We use every edge we can get, and some will go further than others. Is purposefully talking trash and putting someone on tilt bad ethics? What if you knew they were prone to this? What if you knew that they had a gambling addiction and needed help? We constantly cross gray areas where there is no clear right or wrong, so I don't draw those lines. I come to the conclusion when I get there. So again "its not an easy choice."

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You (or maybe not you) and others have no problem using pokertracker, pokerace and datamining to get an edge on players, though they might not want to play with you if they knew you had their stats from 1000 hands. We use every edge we can get, and some will go further than others. Is purposefully talking trash and putting someone on tilt bad ethics? What if you knew they were prone to this? What if you knew that they had a gambling addiction and needed help? We constantly cross gray areas where there is no clear right or wrong, so I don't draw those lines. I come to the conclusion when I get there. So again "its not an easy choice."

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, the tactics you described are all within the rules of poker, whether or not they are an ethically gray area. Taking a pot when you don't have the high hand is not gray at all.

If I accidentally leave a store without paying for an item, I may not always go back and return the item. But I do know it is wrong and I don't try to rationalize my choice.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

Maybe I am explaining too much. I do not have a need to rationalize the choice. My opponent makes a mistake to my advantage. Thats it. Decision over if this is enough money. Some people don't do it because "karma is a bitch". Some don't do it because "its not right". I do it, hardly makes me a bad person. Just one that you might not want to push your chips toward if you may have won.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

Kinky,

Stop being such a moron.

Tony

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

Assuming that you are playing under the rules of "Cards Speak," which is the default unless otherwise stated, doing anything other than giving your opponent the pot makes you a cheat and a douchebag.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

Is the question, "do I say anything" or is it "should YOU say anything".

I think in this instance the qualifications for posting an opinion as to right vs. wrong should be . . .

If the dealer miscounts his total at blackjack then proceeds to pay you for what is in actuality a losing hand do you protest his generosity ?

If the dealer neglects to take the rake from that monster pot you just dragged do you point out his error ?

If the amount of money in the pot under discussion were significant (or life changing) to you would your answer remain the same ?

If you answered "no" to any of these questions your opinion should not be counted as valid.

*

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

Tony,
OP asks a question about do we point this out, seemed more like a poll to me so I answered. In come the moral police to tell insult those of us with less morality. And I'm being told to "stop being such a moron"?

Kinky

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the dealer miscounts his total at blackjack then proceeds to pay you for what is in actuality a losing hand do you protest his generosity ?

If the dealer neglects to take the rake from that monster pot you just dragged do you point out his error ?



[/ QUOTE ]

These questions are definitely not good criteria for a "qualified response" because they are completely different circumstances. I'm assuming you mean a dealer in a casino here. In that case the person is a professional and I won't point out his/her mistakes and I'll take the money right there.

Now, onto the OP, while this situation isn't your fault because it's the dealer's responsibility to select the winning hand after the cards are tabled, if it's a friendly home game and you don't point out that your friend made his boat then you're a dirtbag, plain and simple.

Good luck,
Matt

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tony,
OP asks a question about do we point this out, seemed more like a poll to me so I answered. In come the moral police to tell insult those of us with less morality.



[/ QUOTE ]

So?

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tony,
OP asks a question about do we point this out, seemed more like a poll to me so I answered. In come the moral police to tell insult those of us with less morality. And I'm being told to "stop being such a moron"?

Kinky

[/ QUOTE ]

Morality has nothing to do with you being a moron

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

No, don't tell him. Take the $5 buy-in win, and squeeze every nickel & dime out of your friends. It's their own fault they decided to play against such a shrewd fellow. They should have known better.

Or don't be such a nit.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tony,
OP asks a question about do we point this out, seemed more like a poll to me so I answered. In come the moral police to insult those of us with less morality.



[/ QUOTE ]

So?

[/ QUOTE ]

SO, I am not seeing where defending my point-of-view makes me a moron.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

If it's a buddy of mine, hell yes I point it out. No amount of money is worth being known as "that guy" to your friends. If it's a stranger that obviously doesn't know the rank of hands, then I don't know. I suppose I would have to be feeling like I really could get away with it. But, 9 times out of 10 I would probably consider my reputation in the future at that game and point it out to him.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

"Decision over if this is enough money"

Why does the amount of money make a difference? We're not talking about life-changing amounts, so can you imply that the amount makes it more or less ethical?

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

"If the amount of money in the pot under discussion were significant (or life changing) to you would your answer remain the same ?

If you answered "no" to any of these questions your opinion should not be counted as valid."

This one I found interesting. For the lottery pool that I occasionally run, I tell all of the new members about my "8-figure integrity rule." What it boils down to is this:
If I'm buying tickets for you, and for myself, and you don't know which tickets are yours before the drawing.... then you COULD get your winning ticket from me if the prize is in the low-seven figures.

However, if it's eight-figures or more, there's no way in HELL that you're ending up with the winning ticket that you don't know about. It's too much security for my family (specifically, children) and I know I won't be able to make myself hand it over... which is why I run my pool so anally, BTW.

So, I have some doubts about your presumed stance that extreme life-changing amounts invalidate ethics stances. You are probably technically correct, but I challenge you to pass the $100M test. :P

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

I think somewhere we got off track. I guess I never paid attention to the "ethics" part of the headline...Any case, I think every single one of us agrees that the ethical thing to do, ALWAYS (home game, casino game, poker club game, friends, foes, our mothers), is to point out the full house. The next discussion seems to evolve, or devolve some would say, into how much would it take for you to do what you know is wrong. For some, no amount of money (they say) would allow them to do the wrong thing. For the rest, there is some figure that would let them say "well, it is for $xxx" and then they reason it out however they want, ie "the player should have known", "its the dealer's job at a casino", "its a lot of money". I am of the opinion that everyone has a price, but for most that price is so high that they don't think it exists.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

This post was well-written.

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tony,
OP asks a question about do we point this out, seemed more like a poll to me so I answered. In come the moral police to insult those of us with less morality.



[/ QUOTE ]

So?

[/ QUOTE ]

SO, I am not seeing where defending my point-of-view makes me a moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a volunteer member of the moral police, I would not have called you a moron. On the other, I did say previously that anyone who doesn't give their opponent the pot is a cheat and a douchebag.

Is that better?

Re: ethics - do you point this out?
 

Your post is contradictory. You say this friend this and that friend that. You don't have any friends because you don't treat friends this way. Now you can belabor this point and give this and that sceanrio and so on, but it's all bs. If you knew what it was to be a friend you would not have made this post

No joking. I feel sorry for you, Man.