22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

Actually, it was 3 of the last 4. Grow a set and push these, Vig? Or muck 'em?

Edit: No one looked you up on those 3.

***** Hand History for Game 3154875244 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:18041162 Level:5 Blinds(75/150) - Tuesday, December 06, 15:21:18 EDT 2005
Table Table 66817 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 5: MadMaestro ( $790 )
Seat 6: troutman555 ( $3306 )
Seat 7: Jking4 ( $665 )
Seat 8: IdiotVig ( $1385 )
Seat 9: tornadot69 ( $1854 )
Trny:18041162 Level:5
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to IdiotVig [ Qs Kd ]
IdiotVig ?

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

Folds, this isn't even close actually.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

I think this is very close at the 22s because of the spite call danger. I'd flip a mental coin, I guess.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

if I was in later position I'd push. But utg I'd fold

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
Folds, this isn't even close actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's proximity is up for debate but I would fold here most of the time.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is very close at the 22s because of the spite call danger. I'd flip a mental coin, I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you actually done ICM here, at all? It's not close even if they are calling with a tight range. It's a fold!

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is very close at the 22s because of the spite call danger. I'd flip a mental coin, I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you actually done ICM here, at all? It's not close even if they are calling with a tight range. It's a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my god NO! I DIDN'T DO ICM!!! [kills himself]

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is very close at the 22s because of the spite call danger. I'd flip a mental coin, I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

"hmmm. there it goes...here it comes...huh, its heads. was heads push or fold? Oh well, let me try again, there it goes...

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
Folds, this isn't even close actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somewhere today I read somebody write he wanted more explanation behind the responses. I think it goes without saying that Tigerite is very well respected in the STTF. I sure respect you.

So, why is this not close?

Personally, I think it's a fold because:

- OP has 9 BBs, no where near desperation
- two villains have much smaller stacks and are getting desparate enough to widen their range
- OP pushed a lot already, eventually a spite call will come and KQs is not killing everybody
- BB is going to call with a lot of hands
- two bigger stacks behind can knock OP out

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

Because the calling ranges for the 3 barring BB (who can call with any two and it doesn't bother us, but that's not the point for this case, really) are 3%, 9%, 9%. The CO alone is pretty insane with JJ+,AK+ only. I don't know many $109'ers even who wouldn't call TT or AQ here, let alone a $22er. As for the 9%, that is slightly more likely, but just a tad too close to the bone for me, especially with the pushing that's been going on. Button perhaps I could see folding some of the range, but the SB, knowing BB will be priced in to call a lot, if he puts the OP on any kind of a steal at all will definitely be pushing in with a lot of suited aces and pairs. That absolutely destroys our $EV here.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

With 9+ BBs, I don't feel under pressure. If I enter the pot, I go all-in, but I don't feel like I need to stretch too much to find a hand to enter the pot with. Especially with the two smaller stacks and UTG and having just built up my bullying image. But, really, the key factor is how close I am to 10 BB and how good my position is even if I pass this opportunity.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

Also I agree with zabt, if I had about 7BB here, I'd almost certainly push. With 8.. well, that's right on the knife edge for me. 9BB and especially with the image that the OP has, it's got to be a fold.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have you actually done ICM here, at all? It's not close even if they are calling with a tight range. It's a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, from SNGPT, if everyone has the default tight range, it's +1.4% if blind discounting is set at 0%, +2.4% if BD at 100%.

Did I do something wrong?

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

Well, I always go for the ranges where there is no inbetween range that can stuff your $EV. For instance, try 3%, 9%, 15%, 69%.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

PS there is absolutely no way the BB has a 'tight range' here..

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I always go for the ranges where there is no inbetween range that can stuff your $EV. For instance, try 3%, 9%, 15%, 69%.

[/ QUOTE ]

+0.4%.

Push hands: 66+,ATo+,A8s+,KJs+ (10%)

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folds, this isn't even close actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somewhere today I read somebody write he wanted more explanation behind the responses. I think it goes without saying that Tigerite is very well respected in the STTF. I sure respect you.

So, why is this not close?

Personally, I think it's a fold because:

- OP has 9 BBs, no where near desperation
- two villains have much smaller stacks and are getting desparate enough to widen their range
- OP pushed a lot already, eventually a spite call will come and KQs is not killing everybody
- BB is going to call with a lot of hands
- two bigger stacks behind can knock OP out

[/ QUOTE ]

[resurrects himself] In short, it's the stack sizes, which I hadn't paid attention to before posting for some stupid reason.

Yours means you can wait, and theirs (shorties and big) means you get called way too often.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I always go for the ranges where there is no inbetween range that can stuff your $EV. For instance, try 3%, 9%, 15%, 69%.

[/ QUOTE ]

+0.4%.

Push hands: 66+,ATo+,A8s+,KJs+ (10%)

[/ QUOTE ]

0.4% is too narrow here if you ask me. Especially as you now have 9BB. You're not in any kind of rush, and rate to have a bigger edge over the field than this.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you actually done ICM here, at all? It's not close even if they are calling with a tight range. It's a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, from SNGPT, if everyone has the default tight range, it's +1.4% if blind discounting is set at 0%, +2.4% if BD at 100%.

Did I do something wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just did this too and got the same results. I find this suprising and would say it was a fold before using SNGPT. I still think this is a fold and suprised by the SNGPT results.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you actually done ICM here, at all? It's not close even if they are calling with a tight range. It's a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, from SNGPT, if everyone has the default tight range, it's +1.4% if blind discounting is set at 0%, +2.4% if BD at 100%.

Did I do something wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would everyone be on that tight a range?

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

As I say, please look at inbetween ranges, and consider that BB is going to call far more than TT+,AQ+ here, or whatever 'tight' is.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I always go for the ranges where there is no inbetween range that can stuff your $EV. For instance, try 3%, 9%, 15%, 69%.

[/ QUOTE ]

+0.4%.

Push hands: 66+,ATo+,A8s+,KJs+ (10%)

[/ QUOTE ]

0.4% is too narrow here if you ask me. Especially as you now have 9BB. You're not in any kind of rush, and rate to have a bigger edge over the field than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

But... dare I say it... maybe it *was* even close?

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you actually done ICM here, at all? It's not close even if they are calling with a tight range. It's a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, from SNGPT, if everyone has the default tight range, it's +1.4% if blind discounting is set at 0%, +2.4% if BD at 100%.

Did I do something wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would everyone be on that tight a range?

[/ QUOTE ]

I decided to be literal in my challenge. I guess it's only funny/effective/poignant when a mod does it.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

Well, I don't really think so, if the OP hadn't pushed 3 times in the last 4 hands, possibly. But people get antsy about that and want to be the sheriff, and any ace calling you here is really, really bad news. So I think it really isn't that close.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I always go for the ranges where there is no inbetween range that can stuff your $EV. For instance, try 3%, 9%, 15%, 69%.

[/ QUOTE ]

+0.4%.

Push hands: 66+,ATo+,A8s+,KJs+ (10%)

[/ QUOTE ]
-0.2%. Push hands: 88+,AJo+,ATs+ (7%). With no blind discounting.

+0.3%. Push hands: 66+,ATo+,A8s+,KJs+ (10%) With 50% blind discounting.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you actually done ICM here, at all? It's not close even if they are calling with a tight range. It's a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, from SNGPT, if everyone has the default tight range, it's +1.4% if blind discounting is set at 0%, +2.4% if BD at 100%.

Did I do something wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would everyone be on that tight a range?

[/ QUOTE ]

I decided to be literal in my challenge. I guess it's only funny/effective/poignant when a mod does it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who says the mods are funny, effective or poignant?

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you actually done ICM here, at all? It's not close even if they are calling with a tight range. It's a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, from SNGPT, if everyone has the default tight range, it's +1.4% if blind discounting is set at 0%, +2.4% if BD at 100%.

Did I do something wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would everyone be on that tight a range?

[/ QUOTE ]

I decided to be literal in my challenge. I guess it's only funny/effective/poignant when a mod does it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who says the mods are funny, effective or poignant?

[/ QUOTE ]

They're.......uh..... effective!

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who says the mods are funny, effective or poignant?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. I think they're funny. But then, looks aren't everything.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

There's no way I'm pushing here.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I don't really think so, if the OP hadn't pushed 3 times in the last 4 hands, possibly. But people get antsy about that and want to be the sheriff, and any ace calling you here is really, really bad news. So I think it really isn't that close.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm swung around to fold, but I don't think I 100% agree that any A is terrible news, especially from the shorties.

You're still 40% or better against AJ- and JJ-, which is one of the reasons why KQ is reasonably strong in this situation, as opposed to Ax which is too often dominated when called.

I think this is why we are seeing the possibly surprising ICM results here. You're just not going to be a huge dog very often.

Any weaker K, though, I wouldn't have even debated -- insta-fold.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

Losing 790 or 665, out of 1300, when we're about to hit the blinds is, for me, pretty bad news..?

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
Losing 790 or 665, out of 1300, when we're about to hit the blinds is, for me, pretty bad news..?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... if you lose... which was kind of the whole point of my post.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's no way I'm pushing here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have you actually done ICM here, at all? It's not close even if they are calling with a tight range. It's a fold!

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, from SNGPT, if everyone has the default tight range, it's +1.4% if blind discounting is set at 0%, +2.4% if BD at 100%.

Did I do something wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would everyone be on that tight a range?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the real key. No chance BB is anywhere near that tight with his stack and OP's image. If everyone else is tight and he's playing top 25%, this is -$EV (and the short stacks won't be that tight, either).

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is why we are seeing the possibly surprising ICM results here. You're just not going to be a huge dog very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed - but I voted "fold" in the mental poll because in pretty much any situation where you get called, you're at least a slight dog, and I get hoarse if I have to shout "IMPROVE!!!" at the screen too many times.

Monsters, though, are pretty unlikely. I think the real tipping factor for me was the other pushes. I don't have as much experience at the 22s, but I find that people get itchy to stop your BS if you go, say, three or four hands consecutively all-in.

Bottom line: you have enough chips to slow it down a bit and wait for a somewhat better spot... like, say, KQo in LP. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

I push this every time at the 55s and 109s. .04% is an edge too big to pass imho.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]

0.4% is too narrow here if you ask me. You're not in any kind of rush, and rate to have a bigger edge over the field than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I respect your views a lot, but this argument holds very little weight. It is true that changes to future +EV situations should be considered when deciding whether to take an action in the present, but do you really think that our advantage (with 9 BBs) and the odds that we get a better spot are big enough to switch this from call to fold?

I assume you'd agree that at equal skill levels no +EV situation should be avoided. If not, I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

It's too narrow because that's assuming a still pretty tight lot of calling ranges.. it only gets worse from there.

Because of Hero's image I really don't like the push here. I think I can find a better spot.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's too narrow because that's assuming a still pretty tight lot of calling ranges.. it only gets worse from there.

Because of Hero's image I really don't like the push here. I think I can find a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I like this reasoning much better.

I agree with you on the hand, just wanted to know if you were going somewhere with your argument that it wasn't +EV enough. Sounds like you really meant it wasn't actually +EV.

Re: 22: You\'ve just pushed elevnty-bajillion times
 

Ah, no, I didn't mean that. I mean a 0.4% +EV is definitely good enough at this spot, I'd usually take +0.2% or perhaps +0.3% (it depends on the table) here. It's just the argument of how much he's pushed lately and that +0.4% is probably the "best" he can hope for here, sorry that I wasn't making myself clear on that point.