QQ UTG vs. good players
 

MP2 and BB are solid aggressive players, SB is a LAG caller donk. My image this session is tight and unusually aggro (VPIP of something like 15% and PFR of 11%).

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG+2 ($158.05)
MP1 ($558.35)
MP2 ($269.80)
MP3 ($98)
CO ($220.25)
Button ($216.45)
SB ($66.30)
BB ($112.85)
Hero ($171.40)
UTG+1 ($119.60)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $7</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls $7, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls $6, BB calls $5.

Flop: ($28) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $25</font>, Hero ?

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

Wow, tough spot. You've still got MP2 to act and if you're going to continue with this hand I think you have to raise. Once you raise though, you'll probably be going to the felt if you decide to take it to showdown. I probably raise this to $50 and fold to a re-raise.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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Wow, tough spot. You've still got MP2 to act and if you're going to continue with this hand I think you have to raise. Once you raise though, you'll probably be going to the felt if you decide to take it to showdown. I probably raise this to $50 and fold to a re-raise.

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minraise?

granted i know it's a sizeable raise, but doesnt this seem sketchy?

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

I've been thinking about this one for a while. I think I want a cheap showdown. I think I call here with plans to call down decent bets (bets I would have made anyway). I think we are up against 99-JJ or the wheel. If you are raise (which is not a bad play) and are called then you have committed your stack to the hand.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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I've been thinking about this one for a while. I think I want a cheap showdown. I think I call here with plans to call down decent bets (bets I would have made anyway). I think we are up against 99-JJ or the wheel. If you are raise (which is not a bad play) and are called then you have committed your stack to the hand.

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this is something i need to learn.. calling down with good hands when you're unsure and facing aggression.. normally i'd try to get it all in and hope im not up against KK-AA, 2pr or the set.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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I've been thinking about this one for a while. I think I want a cheap showdown. I think I call here with plans to call down decent bets (bets I would have made anyway). I think we are up against 99-JJ or the wheel. If you are raise (which is not a bad play) and are called then you have committed your stack to the hand.

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this is something i need to learn.. calling down with good hands when you're unsure and facing aggression.. normally i'd try to get it all in and hope im not up against KK-AA, 2pr or the set.

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This looks like a WA/WB situation. Not many cards are likely to help either one of you so getting to showdown cheap is the way to go. Villain might keep on betting, but most villains under bet their monsters (don't want to scare you off) so you probably get off cheaper when you are behind and if you are ahead you still win a nice pot. If villain checks a blank turn (and we check behind)and a blank river then we have an interesting decision, don't we? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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I've been thinking about this one for a while. I think I want a cheap showdown. I think I call here with plans to call down decent bets (bets I would have made anyway). I think we are up against 99-JJ or the wheel. If you are raise (which is not a bad play) and are called then you have committed your stack to the hand.

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this is something i need to learn.. calling down with good hands when you're unsure and facing aggression.. normally i'd try to get it all in and hope im not up against KK-AA, 2pr or the set.

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This looks like a WA/WB situation. Not many cards are likely to help either one of you so getting to showdown cheap is the way to go. Villain might keep on betting, but most villains under bet their monsters (don't want to scare you off) so you probably get off cheaper when you are behind and if you are ahead you still win a nice pot. If villain checks a blank turn (and we check behind)and a blank river then we have an interesting decision, don't we? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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a blank turn and i think i'm coming out for 2/3 pot.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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I've been thinking about this one for a while. I think I want a cheap showdown. I think I call here with plans to call down decent bets (bets I would have made anyway). I think we are up against 99-JJ or the wheel. If you are raise (which is not a bad play) and are called then you have committed your stack to the hand.

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this is something i need to learn.. calling down with good hands when you're unsure and facing aggression.. normally i'd try to get it all in and hope im not up against KK-AA, 2pr or the set.

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This seems like a really hard decision for me. I think it becomes much easier with any kind of decent read on villains normal flop bets, b/c I think u are usually against a set or overpair less than yours. Seems like a good/tough player could value bet his set and milk us for some money with "decent bets", or just push sensing weakness from Hero because of lack of aggression. How many people raise this flop and then fold to a push? What do you do when u call flop and villain pushes turn?

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

I'd say call and reevaluate the turn. You cant raise here without committing yourself. Villian was given 3-1 pf and so could be holding almost any two, including a crap 2pair set wheel, or (if your lucky) mid/high pp.

The more i think about it themore i like a call. if the turn is scary its an easy fold, if the turn is a blank (by that i mean somthing like an offsuit 9) then you are in the same sitaution of wa/wb but you are able to give worse odds when WA

Calling all regulars
 

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I'd say call and reevaluate the turn. You cant raise here without committing yourself. Villian was given 3-1 pf and so could be holding almost any two, including a crap 2pair set wheel, or (if your lucky) mid/high pp.

The more i think about it themore i like a call. if the turn is scary its an easy fold, if the turn is a blank (by that i mean somthing like an offsuit 9) then you are in the same sitaution of wa/wb but you are able to give worse odds when WA

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This situation sucks in general. Raising to 75 here doesnt commit you, but it sure is a waste of money IMO. Calling is ok, but I think you have to fold the turn if he bets again. I hate the flop raise here, and I feel strongly that this hand is NOT WA/WB, as villain could easily have something like 56s, 55, 66, etc, or be taking a stab with air (with or without an ace in his hand). This is a REALLY tough spot, and Im gonna go with call, fold to turn bet.

Can we get some regulars to post about this one?

PS: This belonds in Mid Stakes and I would like to hear their thoughts, as the someone can lead here with a large range of hands and put is in a really hard place. I would not be surprised if some of the Mid Stakes regulars advocated folding this flop.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

Ugh. I think I fold and feel icky.

If you had any other read on BB and MP2, I'd probably stick around. If you raise, you'll probably only get called by hands that beat you. If you call, MP2's raise (and BB's bet) is hard to read (Ax? 33? JJ? 67s?) and not too many turn cards make you happy (A267 = straight, 345 = trips, 8-J = set, AK = overpair). If your image is tight and the two good players know this (which they probably will), they'll know all of this, and probably put you on a big pair raising UTG.

Blah. I know this seems awfully weak, but you've only invested $7 and there's way too much unknown.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

IMO this is the most interesting hand of the day and it is getting zero replies. Come on guys, chime in, its ok to be wrong, thats how we learn.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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I think I want a cheap showdown. I think I call here with plans to call down decent bets (bets I would have made anyway).

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If you call this, pot and villain's stack will be ~$80. I would bet the rest is going in on the turn. Not saying a fold is correct, but these almost never end in a cheap showdown.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

i like to raise then fold to a push. many seem to like call fold to a bet but your flat calling the flop will allow an agreesive player continuation bet on the turn which many said they would fold. calling down you probably put about the same amount of money in if you were to raise. i think it may be cheaper to raise here and fold then call the whole way or call and open yourself to a continuation bluff

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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i like to raise then fold to a push. many seem to like call fold to a bet but your flat calling the flop will allow an agreesive player continuation bet on the turn which many said they would fold. calling down you probably put about the same amount of money in if you were to raise. i think it may be cheaper to raise here and fold then call the whole way or call and open yourself to a continuation bluff

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If we raise here and villain checks to us on the turn what are you doing?

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

This is a tough spot!

The truth is that BB can have a pretty wide range of hands here, since he is closing the action preflop and getting a good price to do so, so you can't automatically put him on a set.

Several hands that might make this bet that you beat are: 65, A5, A4, A3, 66

Several hands that have you beat are: A2,67, 55, 44, 33 45s, 34s

So it's time to narrow that hand range down a bit. The BB will have an excellent chance to checkraise and trap MP2 in if he slowplays the straight, so those two combinations are slightly less probable.

Sets are a possibility, but once again I think most players like to check-raise here with those.

So that leaves the slightly more vulnerable two pair hands that would lead out like that, along with the pair+draw hands.

You've got a decent chance of catching up with two pair (25%) but you're not ahead THAT much of the pair+draw hands or OESD (66). With that in mind, I like to peel one off here and then put him all in on the turn as long as a scare card doesn't hit. If one does hit, I have no problem with folding, and if MP2 or SB happen to come along for the ride, I also have no problem folding to further aggression.

Edit: Also include in the hand range mid PPs like 88-JJ, all of which make a call here even more attractive.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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This is a tough spot!

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I agree.

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The truth is that BB can have a pretty wide range of hands here, since he is closing the action preflop and getting a good price to do so, so you can't automatically put him on a set.

Several hands that might make this bet that you beat are: 65, A5, A4, A3, 66

Several hands that have you beat are: A2,67, 55, 44, 33 45s, 34s

So it's time to narrow that hand range down a bit.

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To me, this is the hard part.

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The BB will have an excellent chance to checkraise and trap MP2 in if he slowplays the straight, so those two combinations are slightly less probable.

Sets are a possibility, but once again I think most players like to check-raise here with those.

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Even with 3 straight cards? I wouldn't want to give a free card to any hand containing a 6 or 2, which is fairly likely given the number of people in the pot - A6, A2, 66, 22.

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So that leaves the slightly more vulnerable two pair hands that would lead out like that, along with the pair+draw hands.

You've got a decent chance of catching up with two pair (25%) but you're not ahead THAT much of the pair+draw hands or OESD (66). With that in mind, I like to peel one off here and then put him all in on the turn as long as a scare card doesn't hit. If one does hit, I have no problem with folding, and if MP2 or SB happen to come along for the ride, I also have no problem folding to further aggression.

Edit: Also include in the hand range mid PPs like 88-JJ, all of which make a call here even more attractive.

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If you include these in his range, how do you know which cards are scary?

All of this thinking makes me a little wary of QQ here facing a pot sized bet. On top of that, there's a good player that has me covered left to act after me. That spells disaster to me.

We're facing two good opponents. When we're ahead, we're a little ahead. When we're behind, we're crushed. When we're ahead, we're not going to make much here. When we're behind, we're losing our stack.

Am I way off base here?

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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With that in mind, I like to peel one off here and then put him all in on the turn as long as a scare card doesn't hit.

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I like this much, much more than "Calling is ok, but I think you have to fold the turn if he bets again." If that's your plan, fold now and save $25, because he's probably going to bet again. Having said that, there is no way I'm folding this flop, so I guess I'm also pushing the turn with no scare card. I'm putting him on an overpair, 99-JJ as suggested earlier.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

Wow, this one is nasty, but ill take the plunge. As bb was closing the action, there are a lot of possibilities, depending on the player (a more detailed read would certainly help). One thing I don't really fear here is AA or KK, as I think most "solid aggressive" players would reraise these preflop with this action. I'm not sure how accurate this is with your read, but that is how I would interpret it.

A set may be wanting to protect their hand here. If villain likes closing the action with various semi-garbage hands because he thinks he has implied odds on you due to your image and due to all the people already in, hands like A2s, 5/4s, 6/5s etc become possible, albeit very unlikely (I hope, or he isn't as solid as you may think [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]). Just about any pocket pair can be betting like this as well, and QQ is ahead of that kind of range here, especially since I don't really fear AA or KK given my interpretation of hero's read. Therefor, this is going to be a WA/WB situation the majority of the time (he would have to have something like 66 for it to not be). I really don't like raising here, therefor I make the call. If MP2/SB don't wake up with a hand, I have position throughout the hand on BB, and I expect a check on most turns a decent % of the time. I think it gets tricky if SB or MP2 come along for the ride. If either one repops, I go away.

I think I likely call down BB if it does get HU and he continues firing. Let him put his money in with his overpair. I check behind if he checks turn. I value bet river if he checks both streets. No real point to raising him at any point, and I am ahead of his range. I wish I had a better read than what you gave me though, as this may change some of my thoughts.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

You're certainly not way off base here, this is probably one of these hands where it doesn't hurt to fold and be wrong... but with BBs moderately small stack size, it doesn't hurt as much to call and be wrong either, especially when there's a non-trivial chance that you're ahead.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

Against just BB, I think you're probably right, but with a good player that covers us yet to act, this is significantly more difficult.

I don't think anyone is really addressing the fact that this pot is NOT heads-up - there's still 3 other people in: one bad tiny stack, one good small stack, and one good deep stack yet to act.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

I think if anything, the other 2 guys will be subsidizing you.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

As usual, I think AJFenix and Doomslice have given us good lines. Im not sure which one I like more though.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

I think a set would checkraise the field, as he has position relative to the raiser. He did end action in a big pot, so he could easily have connectors or one pair here still (like A4, or 88). So his hand range is wide. Problem is you have people behind you.

If you call you let people in behind you, an A, 2, 5, 6, and 7 are all bad, and you dont even know if you have best hand anyway.

I raise to 65, take it from there.

Edit: Looking at stacks, once you raise to 65, the plan is basically fold if MP gets involved, but if the BB puts the rest in, it's a call. If he just calls, I'm all in on most turns. Maybe not an aAce or 7.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

Given BB's hand range, and on top of that given that you don't think he has a set here, I'm really not a fan of raising to 65 here. He can definatly get away from most of his overpair holdings, given the action. Why scare him off here? He is drawing very thin with the majority of his holdings. The only thing we fear is MP2. MP2 is going away a high % of the time here to the original 25$ bet, and for the % of the time he doesn't, we saved ourselves 40$. Putting 65 in and then having MP2 push over our dead money makes me vomit. As for BB, he has about a pot sized bet left on the turn. If we get HU with him by the turn once again, and he makes a reasonable bet, he will pretty much be committed so putting him in for the rest of his money is fine. I think we are only getting played back at when we raise to 65$ on the flop when we are beat.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

OK, this is tough, but heres what I think-

BB is pretty much representing any overpair or a set. Our hand beats his hand range, so we cant fold. I dont think a clal is any good becuase it invites MP to come in and steal the pot. So I like a raise, probably a small one to say, $60 or $65. If MP STILL rasies, we fold, but were going to the felt against BB ebcuase of his stack size.

EDIT: I shoul;d have iuncluded 2 pair into his hand range as well, and waybe even just top pair. I still like my line. I don't want to smooth call and have MP2 raise behind, becuase I'd have to fold and it's very likely to be the best hand.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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Edit: Looking at stacks, once you raise to 65, the plan is basically fold if MP gets involved, but if the BB puts the rest in, it's a call. If he just calls, I'm all in on most turns. Maybe not an aAce or 7.

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I was thinking push the flop &amp; root for folds.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

The hands you beat are JJ-66 (36 ways). The hands that beat you are 55,44,33,54,43,A2 (43 ways). The times he has 65 and bets probably cancel out the times he has 67 and bets. Against a single opponent I'd call. The problem is, that a call could price in some draws, or you could get raised. I think I would fold.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

I don't see MP raising the 25$ here on a steal very often. I don't fear that here. I see him folding most of the time. Blindly pushing and only getting folds when you were way ahead and only getting called when drawing dead or to two outs makes pushing sound pretty bad to me. I guess when in doubt, go all in and pray, eh?

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

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I'd fold. The hands you beat are JJ-66 (36 ways). The hands that beat you are 55,44,33,54,43,A2 (43 ways). The times he has 65 and bets probably cancel out the times he has 67 and bets.

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You are giving incorrect weight to 54, 43, A2. We should at least assume that villain is only playing suited variants of these hands, if we are going to consider them with the same probability as the overpairs. I don't see a solid BB calling here with A2o, 4/3o, and 5/4o very often.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

This might be a tough hand for me to jump in on my first time, but I'll give it a try.

For me in this situation there are two concerns. One is clearly the possible range of hands the BB is leading with, but for me almost as big is the action still behind me. You note that both are solid and agressive.

The call from the BB could actually be any number of the things the other people here have listed - he's completing the action, he's getting 3-1 on his money; it's unlikely he's got some kind of any-hand-garbage.

My gut here, coming from the pot bet and your read on him as solid and aggressive, is saying he hit a set and he's just fastplaying it trying to protect his hand against the [censored] straight draw. That depends, maybe, on his read of the other players in the hand and whether he thinks anyone is going to call down that PF raise with something like A2 or 76. My experience has been that at this level you're going to see those kinds of PF calls more often than you'd like and it's a legitimate concern.

Honestly I'm not too worried about the BB having something like two pair here. I feel mid-to-high-mid pockets (say 88-TT) is a lot more likely. PF the BB is getting nice odds to call with halfway decent cards (AXs, maybe) but two pair hands seem unlikely.

None of this, though, takes into account that you've still got action behind you. THAT'S what really worries me in this situation. I don't know if you honestly have to worry about what he's got in his hand - off the top of my head, calling a decent PF reraise, he's a solid/aggressive player, prolly mid-high-to-high pockets (99 to JJ, say) or strong overcards (AK, AQ) - so much as you have to worry about what he's going to do with it.

There is also the not-insignificant fact that the flop bet from the BB represents almost 20% of his stack, and that the MP has you covered and then some. The former leads me to believe he's fastplaying a strong hand and looking to protect it against the (admittedly silly) draws out there, and the latter just makes me worry.

Options are, then:

You can raise the BB, and that probably gets rid of the MP, but now you're in a situation where you're committing a good chunk of cash to a pot where there's a decent change you're way behind. You do that and I'm guessing that if the BB doesn't just repop you all in he's pushing on the turn no matter what. So you're basically committed there, which is not a situation I like (nor would you, I imagine).

You can just call, but then you're running the risk that the MP behind you pops a big reraise looking to isolate you between himself and the original bettor, thus flushing your call down the drain.

Or you can fold, and feel generally crap about folding QQ to a weak board and a strong bet from a good player. Well, maybe you won't feel too bad about that.

My gut reaction to the whole situation: though I know that generally speaking it's against poker dogma, I think you have to consider that fact that you've only got seven bucks invested at this point, and I think you let it go and curse the gods.

K

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

Um, this may sound a bit silly, but wouldn't ya think that if BB is a good solid player, and Hero has a tight image, wouldn't BB recognize that Hero's range for raising UTG would be JJ-AA + AK? With 2 other players to act, it would be reasonable that BB would assume that odds are there is at least a JJ being held by someone, and would therefore not be betting 77-10/10?

With those hands eliminated from his range, plus another player to act, I would think that the QQ's odds of being ahead aren't very good.

Way Behind: 76s, 55, 44, 33, AA, KK
Somewhat behind: 43s, 54s
Slightly ahead: 65s, 66, 22
Way ahead: JJ (and I would think he'd really think twice about potting on JJ)

Looks like a clear fold to me. Opinions?

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

I dont think we can eliminate 77-1010 from BB's range. Even if BB thinks hero is a tight raiser, he isnt risking much to take a stab on the flop. So what if he has to fold to a raise, its only a PSB. How many times have you held 99 on a rag board, led into the PFR, he pops it up and you fold?

Now, the fact that BB is leading into a full field worries me as well, and causes me to DISCOUNT a mid pair, but surely not remove it from his range. I dont think MP is gonna raise behind us on a steal, as he can't expect BB to toss it away just because we raise, if we call, and MP reraises, its cuz he has a legitimate hand that he thinks is best, and wants to get value out of it.

For that reason I like the flop call.

If we make it 65 to go, and MP folds, and BB folds, what have we accomplished. ALl the worse hands fold and all the better hands call, this pot isnt huge yet, but if we raise on the flop, its gonna get big before we know where we are at.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

I think JJ/TT are much more likely here for BB than AA/KK.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

Sorry I let this one languish for so long. I don't have anything to add to the analysis that's already been given by you all. I don't have the HH in front of me, but IIRC the hand went like this:

I called the $25 (yuck), MP2 minraised (weird), BB pushed, I folded, MP2 called.

BB had 55 for top set, MP2 had 44 for middle set and I got lucky.

Re: QQ UTG vs. good players
 

I'm raising to $60-$70 here. If he pushes, I'm folding..it sucks to fold with about 2/5 of our stack in here, but if he's solid/aggressive, I don't think he'll 3 bet us on a bluff or semi bluff when it looks like we're committed to the hand..

If he flat calls my raise, and the turn is a non A, 2, 6, or 7, I'm all-in..he's getting my stack then if I'm beat, he played the hand to perfection.

If he flat calls my raise, and the turn IS a scare card mentioned above, I check behind, probably calling &lt;$50 or so on a blank river and folding to anything higher.