Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

Deep in a toruney and I have about 50% more chips than my opponent. I raise 3xBB against him from SB (for the millionth time) with AJ. He calls.

Flop is KK5.

Now, here has been his betting pattern from previous hands: he bets flop if checked to, folds if I bet the flop.

So, let's assume that I know what cards he has (TOP Fundamental Theroem stuff). Say I know he has T3o. Isn't it correct that I check to induce a bluff?

That's what I did, but then he and another guy called me an idiot when he hit a T on the turn.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

arnt you happy he hit the ten on the turn drawing dead?

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

Oops. I edited it. Supposed to be KK5.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

Did he bet?

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

he didnt bet.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did he bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

wait so if he bet how did he se the turn?

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

[ QUOTE ]
wait so if he bet how did he se the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

He bet flop. I called.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

I think if you make a move like this, you have to protect your hand. When your "best" hand is A-high, you have to protect it with a flop raise. The check is fine to induce the bluff, but you have to push him out of the pot then. If you had KJ instead, you could check/call to the river to your heart's content.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you make a move like this, you have to protect your hand. When your "best" hand is A-high, you have to protect it with a flop raise. The check is fine to induce the bluff, but you have to push him out of the pot then. If you had KJ instead, you could check/call to the river to your heart's content.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if you know your opponent's hand is ten high on the flop, you would still want to protect your hand?

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

this really read-dependent. did you have a sense of how he played on the turn? if he shut down on the turn with no hand, then you may as well c/r him. if he'd regularly bluff off his stack with no hand, then sure, check/call all the way.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

Here's the thing. If you know he had T3o, of course you can give him as many free cards as you like. Because when a T or 3 hits, you can get out. But he didn't flash the cards to you or anything. So all you really know is that he's probably weak. The problem is he might stack you on a 3 or T. But he can bluff you out on a Q, 9, 8, 7, 6, 4, 2.

Did you fold when he hit his T on the turn?

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing. If you know he had T3o, of course you can give him as many free cards as you like. Because when a T or 3 hits, you can get out. But he didn't flash the cards to you or anything. So all you really know is that he's probably weak. The problem is he might stack you on a 3 or T. But he can bluff you out on a Q, 9, 8, 7, 6, 4, 2.

Did you fold when he hit his T on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

He checked turn and river. Go figure.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think if you make a move like this, you have to protect your hand. When your "best" hand is A-high, you have to protect it with a flop raise. The check is fine to induce the bluff, but you have to push him out of the pot then. If you had KJ instead, you could check/call to the river to your heart's content.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if you know your opponent's hand is ten high on the flop, you would still want to protect your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't be arguing with the people at the table, ever. It's tempting, but don't do it.

If you know he will fold to a bet, you should bet. I would want to take the pot down any way I can, for as cheap as I can, as soon as I can. You aren't inducing a bluff with a monster here, you have A high. Giving free cards is still bad. Think about it, T3 vs AJ is still only a 2 to 1 edge. It's not aces.

All you're doing is committing him to the pot more, which means he's less likely to fold later. How do you know he didnt bet with a good hand?

Overall, you WAY overestimated your strength here. Best move would be to bet the flop if you know he'll fold.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

why are you trying to induce a bluff as if you have a made hand? unless, you know you can drastically outplay him on later streets, this is not wise. take the pot now. if he even has a 5 he has u beat, not to mention pocket 2's etc... Sometimes we have to avoid being our own worst enemy and overthinking the situation. We don't ACTUALLY know his cards. If he had a pattern of betting as you stated and you wanted to check raise him, that's fine, but there you are talking about higher risk, high reward (you have to accept the consequences if it doesn't work). Take the pot down now, don't try and get too fancy.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

Remember, we are assuming we know opponent's cards and we are on the flop. So, applying Fundatemal Theorem, it is coorect to induce bluff. No? Given my 2-1 edge, it is +EV, right?

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't be arguing with the people at the table, ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

If he'll call your raise with any two and bet the flop with any two but fold to your bet if he can't beat 55, then the best play is to check-raise the flop. You might even shake him off of a 5 (unlikely, but possible). Check-calling the flop would not be good unless you know he will bluff the turn whenever he misses, which is unlikely.

Likely, he will fold T3 to a check-raise when he has the correct odds to draw to a pair. Thus, you have induced a mistake. If you check-call, you have made the mistake, because if you knew he had T3, you would want to raise him.

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

is he capable of a multistreet bluff with T3o having not hit the turn?

if not, then you have to raise the flop. also, calling when you've got more than just bluffer in the hand with you is silly.

c

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

Why would you ever make that assumption?? You need to come out of fairy land and play some real poker [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Re: Help settle an argument I had with opponents
 

[ QUOTE ]
is he capable of a multistreet bluff with T3o having not hit the turn?

if not, then you have to raise the flop. also, calling when you've got more than just bluffer in the hand with you is silly.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

It was just the two of us.

Yes he does multi-street bluff (small bets each street), though he didn't do it here.

I'm leaning towards a check raise on the flop the more I think about it.