KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

How does this line look?

MP2 is 56/18/2.2

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG folds.

River: (8.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

I strongly considered raising the turn, but decided not to for whatever reason. Thoughts?

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

3-bet preflop. start raising on the flop. you do not want BB and UTG to see cheap turns with QJ/QT/JT, and you do want to get bets in with a great hand.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

Is this 3 bet strictly to isolate? I understand if it is suited, but offsuit don't we run a high risk of being dominated even by a laggy raiser?

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

Yeah, I almost folded pre-flop. Lags have a tendancy to have me dominated at all the wrong times.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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Is this 3 bet strictly to isolate? I understand if it is suited, but offsuit don't we run a high risk of being dominated even by a laggy raiser?

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s00ted doesn't make you all that much less dominated.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

the 3-bet is to get this heads up or 3-way and to win the pot when we both miss. say he has an ace and the flop is J95. if he holds A6/A7/A8/AT he will have a hard time continuing.

3-betting is surely better than coldcalling, which in my opinion is the -EV option. folding is 0 EV, and reraising is probably just a little bit on the positive side.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

hey ksot

how loose of a raiser is the villain? if hes a normal lag you need to be 3 betting to isolate here on the button. since you didnt you need to raise that flop and go jam-happy. since you didnt do that either you need to raise the turn. since you hate money you can now go light your wallet on fire.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

No, but you'll hit a flush about the same % of time that he'll have you dominated.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

If the pfr'er donk bets us on the J95 flop you are raising it and folding to a 3 bet?

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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hey ksot

how loose of a raiser is the villain? if hes a normal lag you need to be 3 betting to isolate here on the button. since you didnt you need to raise that flop and go jam-happy. since you didnt do that either you need to raise the turn. since you hate money you can now go light your wallet on fire.

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I wanted BB and UTG to stay in there. I was pretty sure they're were just calling because villain had been raising constantly and their turn folds seem to confirm that. Even if they had gutshot draws, is that so terrible? I don't mind someone putting in a big bet for a gut shot draw in a pot that I'm very likely to win.

Fact of the matter is I built a MUCH bigger pot playing it the way I did, than if I'd jammed the flop and turn. It was a small gamble, but is it really such a bad thing?

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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If the pfr'er donk bets us on the J95 flop you are raising it and folding to a 3 bet?

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no. doing so would be horrible poker. perhaps the reason you feel you are running bad is because you are folding hands in profitable situations? if i had 3-bet preflop and raised the flop, the pot would be plenty large enough to call for my gutshot to the nuts.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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3-bet preflop. start raising on the flop.

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Good advice. AF of 2.2 is aggressive for that VPIP, and so is the PFR. He's a LAG so give him the chance to raise and give you money.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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I wanted BB and UTG to stay in there. I was pretty sure they're were just calling because villain had been raising constantly and their turn folds seem to confirm that. Even if they had gutshot draws, is that so terrible? I don't mind someone putting in a big bet for a gut shot draw in a pot that I'm very likely to win.

Fact of the matter is I built a MUCH bigger pot playing it the way I did, than if I'd jammed the flop and turn. It was a small gamble, but is it really such a bad thing?

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Giving gutshots proper odds to call the flop isn't a good idea. You want them to make mistakes not play properly. Also you'd be amazed how many 1/2 players will peel this flop with some ugly hands or call down a 9 even if you do raise. Also if you get in the habit of not slowplaying and therefore raising alot of flops you'd be amazed how much they love to call you down.

The other thing is: How do you KNOW that not raising the flop and turn netted you a much bigger pot? One of those guys could easily have Kx and will give you plenty of action while forcing those gutshotters to pay too much to make their calls profitable.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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Giving gutshots proper odds to call the flop isn't a good idea. You want them to make mistakes not play properly.

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Actually I think that by NOT raising on the flop, I got them to make mistakes they wouldn't have if I'd raised. Either way, they weren't getting proper odds for gutshot draws.

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The other thing is: How do you KNOW that not raising the flop and turn netted you a much bigger pot? One of those guys could easily have Kx and will give you plenty of action while forcing those gutshotters to pay too much to make their calls profitable.

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Well raising the turn was clearly optimal in hindsight, since neither of the extras called there. But as I said, I don't think I'd have kept them around until the turn by raising the flop. That's two extra bets I got on that round instead of one or possibly even none from the LAG (not to mention his turn bet which I enticed by not raising). I really felt that nobody else had Kx, but if they did, they'd probably raise it sooner than I did anyway. They'd be in a much better position to do so, not acting directly after the PF raiser. Really, the only negative thing I can think of regarding the way I played this hand is that the LAG caught a miracle card on the river (6s full of kings). But I think the chances of that are slim enough to make it a risk worth taking.

Correct me if you disagree.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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the 3-bet is to get this heads up or 3-way and to win the pot when we both miss. say he has an ace and the flop is J95. if he holds A6/A7/A8/AT he will have a hard time continuing.

3-betting is surely better than coldcalling, which in my opinion is the -EV option. folding is 0 EV, and reraising is probably just a little bit on the positive side.

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I really doubt coldcalling is -EV here, and I actually prefer it to 3-betting. I kind of think that against someone this aggressive we are likely the ones that are going to be put to the test if we both miss.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

Raise flop (it will only give you 2 sb if the other two call and a scare card can come so easy...). Cap it if possible.

Raise turn (If you raise preflop and he 3-bet you, he wont go anywhere, and make him pay any drawing hand he have)

Cap river. How come you only called???

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

*grunch*

Against a villian with this high a PFR% I'd 3-bet preflop. Flop is an easy raise. Your hand is strong, but certainly does not fit all the requirements for a slowplay--most specially, Kx still has a redraw to the full house. Raise again on the turn if bet into again.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

raise or fold preflop, calling seems pretty bad here.

i probably fold, but i think reraising is higher +ev

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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Cap river. How come you only called???

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Cause I was beat? Why would he 3-bet if he couldn't beat a king?

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*grunch*

Against a villian with this high a PFR% I'd 3-bet preflop. Flop is an easy raise. Your hand is strong, but certainly does not fit all the requirements for a slowplay--most specially, Kx still has a redraw to the full house. Raise again on the turn if bet into again.

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Kx has a redraw to a full house, sure, but is kx folding to a bet and a raise? Hell no.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

*grunch*

I'd raise the flop and call down if reraised.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

:grunch:

Either raise the flop or call the flop and raise the turn. The likely preflop raise hands you are behind are AA and AK.

But since you decided until the river to raise you might as well cap it because MP2 isn't going to put you on a K.

If possible, I would have raised the flop in hopes of using MP2's lagginess to trap the other two.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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Cap river. How come you only called???

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Cause I was beat? Why would he 3-bet if he couldn't beat a king?

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I doubt he puts you on the K since you waited until the river to raise. If you had raised on the flop or turn and he still 3-bets you on the river then I might just call thinking he spiked his other card.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

grunch,

Ugh! What are you doing? Preflop against this LAG, raise for christ sake! I can see maybe waiting for the turn to raise your trips, but depending on how passive the rest of the table is, I might consider raising the flop too if I thought they'd cold call 2. Definately raise the turn and keep leaning on the raise button the rest of the hand.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

I am not a fan of a preflop cold call with KQo even in position. If you do want t get in this pot, Make it 3 bets and isolate this guy, and force the UTG to cold call if he wants to play.

If MP2 will bluff all the way post flop, your flop call is fine for inducing a turn bet that you can then raise.

Cap the river, if he is a lag, your hand in this situation will be better than his a fare amount of the time. Despite the time you are beat I thinking caping is a profitable play.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

*Grunch*

-According to what I've seen, cold calling KQo is not what you want to do. I would have folded preflop.
-You should have definitely raised this flop. If you got re-raised, then I'd start thinking he'd had another king. If he just called, I'd bet the crap outta the turn and river.
- Why wait until the river to start betting? Your pot equity is HUGE after the flop! He's aggressive enough to get A LOT of bets in.

I think in general you played this hand very passively and very much missed many value bets.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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*Grunch*

-According to what I've seen, cold calling KQo is not what you want to do. I would have folded preflop.
-You should have definitely raised this flop. If you got re-raised, then I'd start thinking he'd had another king. If he just called, I'd bet the crap outta the turn and river.
- Why wait until the river to start betting? Your pot equity is HUGE after the flop! He's aggressive enough to get A LOT of bets in.

I think in general you played this hand very passively and very much missed many value bets.

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What does grunch mean anyway?

I guess I have to respect what everyone is saying about folding or raising pre-flop, but what am I supposed to do when it gets capped and I don't hit the flop (happens the majority of the time)? I just threw away an extra big bet and drove out the overcallers to my left. Why do I want to do this again?

As for waiting until the river to raise, he only had a measely pair of 6s. If I'd shown strength on the flop, he'd have let his hand go pretty quickly. I got more bets out of him by letting him lead each round. I don't think that point is very debatable.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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What does grunch mean anyway?

I guess I have to respect what everyone is saying about folding or raising pre-flop, but what am I supposed to do when it gets capped and I don't hit the flop (happens the majority of the time)? I just threw away an extra big bet and drove out the overcallers to my left. Why do I want to do this again?

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Grunch is to respond without reading other responses first.

As to the other question, you needs must play poker, dude. Yeah, 3betting here increases variance, but it is the correct play.

-Jaran

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

...grunch...

I'm not a big fan of coldcalling preflop with KQo. If he really is laggy and has been showing that he's raising with junk, I'd 3-bet to try and isolate.

Slowplaying the flop is fine, let the others peel.

I'm also not a big fan of waiting for the river to raise. If you thought there was a good chance the others might peel again then maybe, but having MP1 check the river would suck.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

I keep trying to work out in my head why it is so important to isolate the raiser when all it does in my eyes is cut down the size of the pot and force me into a situation where I'll probably be betting or calling with a worse hand. There really aren't very many hands in his range that KQo beats, LAG or not.

To those who advocate raising pre-flop, tell me this. When the flop comes all blanks and he bets, am I supposed to fold right there after having 3bet pre-flop and appear weak-tight? Am I supposed to call down with king high? I hate both of those options. Why should I put myself in that position when I could just coldcall and see if I catch?

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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but what am I supposed to do when it gets capped and I don't hit the flop (happens the majority of the time)?

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first of all most players (even laggy ones) don't indiscriminately cap every hand they raise. second, you don't miss every time. your statement is simply untrue.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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but what am I supposed to do when it gets capped and I don't hit the flop (happens the majority of the time)?

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first of all most players (even laggy ones) don't indiscriminately cap every hand they raise. second, you don't miss every time. your statement is simply untrue.

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Whether he just calls or caps, I now have to make continuation bets on the flop, right? I generally don't like to do that if I can't beat ace high...

I didn't say it always misses, I said it misses the majority of the time.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

you said "it gets capped and i don't hit the flop" happens a majority of the time. if you meant you just miss the flop a majority of the time, okay.

but yeah, you will make a continuation bet basically all the time when you 3-bet preflop.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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I keep trying to work out in my head why it is so important to isolate the raiser when all it does in my eyes is cut down the size of the pot and force me into a situation where I'll probably be betting or calling with a worse hand. There really aren't very many hands in his range that KQo beats, LAG or not.


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How can someone raise 18% of the time, and not have A LOT of hands in his range that are dogs to KQo?

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To those who advocate raising pre-flop, tell me this. When the flop comes all blanks and he bets, am I supposed to fold right there after having 3bet pre-flop and appear weak-tight? Am I supposed to call down with king high? I hate both of those options. Why should I put myself in that position when I could just coldcall and see if I catch?

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Well those are situations you'd have to evaluate as they come. But the points are:
1) You are in position, against a player who is likely raising with a hand worse than your own
and
2) You increase your pot equity by knocking the blinds out of the hand and getting this heads up

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

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I keep trying to work out in my head why it is so important to isolate the raiser when all it does in my eyes is cut down the size of the pot and force me into a situation where I'll probably be betting or calling with a worse hand. There really aren't very many hands in his range that KQo beats, LAG or not.

To those who advocate raising pre-flop, tell me this. When the flop comes all blanks and he bets, am I supposed to fold right there after having 3bet pre-flop and appear weak-tight? Am I supposed to call down with king high? I hate both of those options. Why should I put myself in that position when I could just coldcall and see if I catch?

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somewhere on this forum possibly in the general hold'em forum is a very long response by Ed Miller about preflop raising.

You got UTG limping, a LAG raising from MP, no calls after the raise, and the blinds to act after you. You have position and you should raise to isolate AND to take control of the hand. UTG has shown no strength, and MP could have a very wide range of hands. If you miss on the flop, so what? You're last to act. Based on the play ahead of you, you can decide what to do. You don't know that he will bet out if the flop comes all blanks and you raised pre-flop. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. If he does, you can decide to peel one off, raise, or fold. I hate cold calling. I almost NEVER do it, PT says less than 0.5% of the time. Either raise or fold. Both SSHE and ITPM talk about how it is usually a BAD idea to cold call.

Re: KQ flops trips against laggy PF raiser
 

theres enough variance in limit holdem, so if you want to increase it go ahead.

preflop this is a position/value 3 bet. be stubborn post flop if you miss and the lag starts betting, but with the 3 bet pf i dont know how often you get donked so you may get a cheap showdown if you bet right.