Aces big pot.
 

I'm pretty new to this table and my only notices are that BB and UTG are taking alot of flops.
The pot was so enormous I just couldn't fold this. Do I fold on some street? [edit]I don't think I can fold this without reads(?)[/edit] Comments? Thanks!
Pokerstars $0.25/$0.5
Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (24.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (16.20 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (20.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 24.20 BB

Re: Aces big pot.
 

pf - correct to raise &amp; cap everytime.

flop - I'm raising here, esp with no reads. You have outs if someone made a set.

Raise the turn? Maybe UTG has KK-TT, in which case only JJ beats you. I probably try a turn raise to see if BB goes away.

With no help, I call but never fold this river. You will win quite often here.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

You slowed down way sooner than i would have. I am 3-betting the flop for sure.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

if not raising flop, then raise turn. Then bet river. Why play so passively?

Re: Aces big pot.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty new to this table and my only notices are that BB and UTG are taking alot of flops.
The pot was so enormous I just couldn't fold this. Do I fold on some street? Comments? Thanks!
Pokerstars $0.25/$0.5
Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (24.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (16.20 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (20.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 24.20 BB

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Sorry, but the flop is the only street played correctly IMO [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. You need to 3-bet that flop to make it 2 back to BB, plus you have the top overpair!!! The whole hand plays differently from there. I'm assuming you lost since you posted this hand, but you need to regain control on that flop. A bet and raise on that flop from limpers gives you no indication that you're beat. You may have lost this hand but think you're winning on the flop a LOT of the time.

I'm not commenting on the other streets except to say by the river you're probably dead to something or another; I'm guessing UTG has a set of 3s, BB has like Q9, and UTG+1 has some crap pair.

Nice table BTW.

Steve

Re: Aces big pot.
 

I'd rather just call the flop with my one pair since no one is folding for one more (and BB isn't folding for two more on the flop). I'm then raising pretty much any turn.

I don't think you're going to win very often, but you'll definitely win 1/24 times.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

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I'd rather just call the flop with my one pair since no one is folding for one more (and BB isn't folding for two more on the flop). I'm then raising pretty much any turn.

I don't think you're going to win very often, but you'll definitely win 1/24 times.

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That's a better line than what I said before upon reconsidering.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

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pf - correct to raise &amp; cap everytime.

flop - I'm raising here, esp with no reads. You have outs if someone made a set.

Raise the turn? Maybe UTG has KK-TT, in which case only JJ beats you. I probably try a turn raise to see if BB goes away.

With no help, I call but never fold this river. You will win quite often here.

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Oh I see [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I was scared on flop and turn and river. I am playing scared and it seems that it's very -EV.
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Sorry, but the flop is the only street played correctly IMO . You need to 3-bet that flop to make it 2 back to BB, plus you have the top overpair!!! The whole hand plays differently from there. I'm assuming you lost since you posted this hand, but you need to regain control on that flop. A bet and raise on that flop from limpers gives you no indication that you're beat. You may have lost this hand but think you're winning on the flop a LOT of the time.

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Indeed I lost this hand and that made me think about if I made some mistakes. I see now that folding is NOT an option. I should've been more aggressive but I just went into coward mode [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. Well atleast I learnt something then. Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. Comments welcome anytime!

Re: Aces big pot.
 

what were their hands btw? pm me if you dont want to influence anyone else's posts

Re: Aces big pot.
 

*grunch*

3 bet the flop. Call the turn/river. Pot is way to big to fold.

What are you afraid of?

Re: Aces big pot.
 

(grunching)

First off, glad to see you capped it preflop.

I'd pop in a 3-bet on the flop, call a cap, and probably raise on the turn if bet into. The guy who woke up limped, called one raise, and then called two more preflop. I do NOT think you're up against KK here, as nice as that would be. MP1's limp-reraise could mean a lot of things at this level, but given that he initially limped after several other limpers he's either a good player sweetening the pot for a drawing hand, or a donk who likes to be uberagressive and thinks he's tricky (and at this level, which is more likely?).

Therefore, I think there's a good enough chance that your hand is best. Is it possible you're up against a wonky 2 pair or a set? Sure. But on the flop you have a bet, a raise, and a cold-call -- that gives you great odds to hit another A when you're not ahead already, so go ahead and pump this one up. Plus, most of the people at this level like to smooth call with a set and pop the turn (fear UTG+1 until the call on the turn), so I think that makes a set slightly less likely.

I'd pop the turn, too, if it's raised into me, because the pot is so big and there are still 3 other people in. Make them pay to hit their crap draws that they're in there with. Call down if you get 3-bet.

On the river, if I have the lead, I'm betting. If I don't, I'm calling down. While you will be beat here a lot you'll also see a lot of people showing down junk like 9-10 or A9, or a pocket pair lower than JJ. Play it aggressively; you have tons of equity in this pot.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

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flop - I'm raising here, esp with no reads. You have outs if someone made a set.

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Hero has neither odds to draw to his set nor any backdoor draws.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

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I'd rather just call the flop with my one pair since no one is folding for one more (and BB isn't folding for two more on the flop). I'm then raising pretty much any turn.

I don't think you're going to win very often, but you'll definitely win 1/24 times.

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This line sounds more like you're trying to protect your hand by scaring them out with the double-sized raise, which shouldn't apply here. Either you have the best hand, in which case get as much money in as you can, or you're behind, in which case you're not pushing anyone out. I don't see what the turn raise accomplishes here that the flop raise doesn't.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

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I'd rather just call the flop with my one pair since no one is folding for one more (and BB isn't folding for two more on the flop). I'm then raising pretty much any turn.

I don't think you're going to win very often, but you'll definitely win 1/24 times.

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Meh i see no real reason to wait here the pot is huge his relative position sucks with a players in between him and the flop rasier on both sides. This is a very good flop for aces. I am playing this fast until someone lets me know i shouldn't be.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

Raise the flop. Raise the turn. Raise the river.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

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flop - I'm raising here, esp with no reads. You have outs if someone made a set.

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Hero has neither odds to draw to his set nor any backdoor draws.

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Agreed - I didn't mean to imply that the 3 bet was for anything other than value. On this flop, AA is best a significant portion of the time, and 2 more cards are coming . . .

Re: Aces big pot.
 

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I'd rather just call the flop with my one pair since no one is folding for one more (and BB isn't folding for two more on the flop).

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That's exactly why I'd raise the flop. Any time you are getting people to commit more money to the pot with the worst of it, that is a good thing. Think Fundamental Theorem of Poker here: If they could see your cards, do you think they'd want you to call, or raise?

Re: Aces big pot.
 

Think about the possible hand ranges of BB, UTG, and UTG+1, given their play. Two pair is very unlikely here, since things like 96 fold pre-flop. BB and UTG like the flop enough to bet/raise, which suggests they've made at least a pair of 9's. Let's conservatively assume they'd only do this with a 9 and an overcard, 99, 66, 33, or an overpair. Also, we'll conservatively assume they'd only call preflop with things like K9 if it's suited (which increases the probability that they actually have an overpair or trips).

UTG+1 is cold-called two bets but didn't reraising, suggesting he either doesn't have complete confidence in his cards (perhaps he made a pair of 9's as well) or he's drawing with 87s. I doubt he has trips.

On the flop, if we plug all of this into Poker Stove, we see that you're the favorite with around 36% equity! That's better than 2:1 and with 3 players very likely to call, re-raise!

The turn and river cards are unhappy cards for you. Since you're not likely to get anyone to fold, I'd just call down from there, but bet if it's checked to you.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

This reply is to jake ox as well.

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I'd rather just call the flop with my one pair since no one is folding for one more (and BB isn't folding for two more on the flop). I'm then raising pretty much any turn.

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Meh i see no real reason to wait here the pot is huge his relative position sucks with a players in between him and the flop rasier on both sides. This is a very good flop for aces. I am playing this fast until someone lets me know i shouldn't be.

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I don't like 3-betting the flop because:

- it isn't going to protect our hand; no one is going to fold.

- 3-betting opens us up to a 4-bet from one of the *two* flop bettors, which bloats the pot even further while we're holding just one pair.

- just calling now lets us use our position to observe BB's reaction to UTG's raise, as well as the action on the turn.

I like raising the turn instead because:

- this is the best chance to protect our hand. Anyone with a pair has 5 outs to beat us (unless their other card is an A). There are a couple lame gutshots that could be hanging out. We can't cut their odds down enough to make it incorrect for them to call, but this is the best we can do. Anything that improves our equity in this huge pot -- like getting someone to fold a draw that would have beaten us -- is rad.

- for any draws that aren't folding (OESD, etc.), we charge them the maximum for the privilege of drawing out on us.

- if UTG doesn't 3-bet, we can take a free showdown if we want. (If UTG *does* 3-bet, we're in deep doodoo.)

Frankly, i don't really like waiting for the turn to raise, but i still like it *more* than 3-betting the flop. While this is a great flop for aces, i get nervous when there is a bet and a raise into me on a relatively uncoordinated board when i capped preflop. Our hand is best a lot, but it definitely needs to be protected as much as we can protect it. Raising the turn is better for that goal than 3-betting the flop.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

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Frankly, i don't really like waiting for the turn to raise, but i still like it *more* than 3-betting the flop. While this is a great flop for aces, i get nervous when there is a bet and a raise into me on a relatively uncoordinated board when i capped preflop. Our hand is best a lot, but it definitely needs to be protected as much as we can protect it. Raising the turn is better for that goal than 3-betting the flop.

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All good points. While you may be able to get a raise in on the turn as well as a flop 3-bet, I don't mind waiting for the turn if that's the best way to get the most money in (i.e., if everyone else freezes up after your flop 3-bet).

There are only a couple of non-idiot hands out there that beat us on the flop (making trips), but there are a number of possible hands that could be out there that we do beat (lower PPs that don't make trips, A9s, T9s, suited connectors that flopped a straight draw or pair/bdsd).

I still want to get as much money in as I can, as fast as I can. If a flop call turn raise line gets in more money, then I'm all for it.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

I also want to add that there are a couple threads about similar situations going on right now.

Kwaz posted this one, which links to an SS thread:
An important concept from SS.

The question was about the river, but there was another raise flop vs. raise turn question in there that everyone jumped on:
TT in large pot, fold river?

Re: Aces big pot.
 

I would 3 bet the flop call a cap and raise the turn. If they still like their hand then I call down.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

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This reply is to jake ox as well.

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I'd rather just call the flop with my one pair since no one is folding for one more (and BB isn't folding for two more on the flop). I'm then raising pretty much any turn.

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Meh i see no real reason to wait here the pot is huge his relative position sucks with a players in between him and the flop rasier on both sides. This is a very good flop for aces. I am playing this fast until someone lets me know i shouldn't be.

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I don't like 3-betting the flop because:

- it isn't going to protect our hand; no one is going to fold.

- 3-betting opens us up to a 4-bet from one of the *two* flop bettors, which bloats the pot even further while we're holding just one pair.

- just calling now lets us use our position to observe BB's reaction to UTG's raise, as well as the action on the turn.

I like raising the turn instead because:

- this is the best chance to protect our hand. Anyone with a pair has 5 outs to beat us (unless their other card is an A). There are a couple lame gutshots that could be hanging out. We can't cut their odds down enough to make it incorrect for them to call, but this is the best we can do. Anything that improves our equity in this huge pot -- like getting someone to fold a draw that would have beaten us -- is rad.

- for any draws that aren't folding (OESD, etc.), we charge them the maximum for the privilege of drawing out on us.

- if UTG doesn't 3-bet, we can take a free showdown if we want. (If UTG *does* 3-bet, we're in deep doodoo.)

Frankly, i don't really like waiting for the turn to raise, but i still like it *more* than 3-betting the flop. While this is a great flop for aces, i get nervous when there is a bet and a raise into me on a relatively uncoordinated board when i capped preflop. Our hand is best a lot, but it definitely needs to be protected as much as we can protect it. Raising the turn is better for that goal than 3-betting the flop.

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Hi Tyler a few questions. How many outs would BB need to correctly call 2 bets on the turn assuming UTG bets UTG+1 calls and we raise? UTG needs how many outs to call one more bet? What about UTG+1? Are we sure UTG is going to bet again on the turn? What does it really tell us if BB 3-bets the flop? Does that mean we are behind? How often does our equity dramatically decrease or increase on the turn?

I guess my point is the only valid reason to wait and raise the turn here is to gain more value than a flop 3-bet would gain and of course this is just my opinion. After you answer my questions you may agree or disagree with me no big deal i don't think it matters a ton either way just thought i would throw this out there.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

Wow nice feedback thanks everyone [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

I just reviewed the hands BB &amp; UTG+1 had. They really don't make any sense. I got a good laughter when I was doing this reading. If someone wants to know I can post what they had. It's just that I realize now why I should raise this pot and not just be calling. They would probably just put more money in and that's where the profit comes [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. I got alot to learn and thanks to these forums I'm learning alot.

Re: Aces big pot.
 

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How many outs would BB need to correctly call 2 bets on the turn assuming UTG bets UTG+1 calls and we raise?

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BB is getting 19:2 == 9.5:1, requiring 4.5 outs or so. He would be making a small immediate mistake to call, though he can probably call with a gutshot anyway given the implied odds.

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UTG needs how many outs to call one more bet? What about UTG+1?

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If BB calls, UTG and UTG+1 can easily call getting implied odds to chase even their 2-outers.

Still, i maintain that waiting until the turn protects our hand *better* than raising the flop.

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Are we sure UTG is going to bet again on the turn?


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I think the odds of *either* BB or UTG betting again is pretty good.

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What does it really tell us if BB 3-bets the flop? Does that mean we are behind?


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It could mean a lot of things, but it narrows his holdings a little more than if he just calls. It doesn't necessarily mean we're behind, but i'm already nervous about our hand and i'll take all the information i can get.

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How often does our equity dramatically decrease or increase on the turn?


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This is the big thing that makes this not a canonical "wait until the turn to raise" hand. No overcards can come, and there were no flush draws available on the flop, so our equity is not going to change very much on the turn -- at least, not in a way that we can easily discern. "Two Overpair Hands" from SSH, etc. etc.

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I guess my point is the only valid reason to wait and raise the turn here is to gain more value than a flop 3-bet would gain and of course this is just my opinion. After you answer my questions you may agree or disagree with me no big deal i don't think it matters a ton either way just thought i would throw this out there.

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I strongly agree that this is close either way, and that either of our lines is better than the OP's line [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Thanks for the discussion.