KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

There aren't too many cases where I'd call a bet and fold to a raise on the same street, but this seemed like a reasonable situation to do so. Comments on all streets appreciated!

No reads on individual players. Game is reasonably tight with most pots being heads-up or three way.

2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, SB calls, Hero??

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

Raise PF.

Bet flop. Reconsider if you get pressure from someone.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

raise preflop. I think this is a classic case of reverse implied odds. Even if you're ahead, there are several cards that will cost you the pot. The fact that MP3 wakes up after a bet and a call means that he's either got the flush, the naked A or two pair of some sort. A set would have most certainly raised the flop. He's probalby got the flush, and I think you can go ahead and fold here.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

I think folding the turn is pretty bad. Villains could easily be waiting on the turn card to exploit equity with a hand like KJ or KT.

Call the raise, bet or call a no diamond river.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

I would have raised SB's turn donkbet.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

It does kind of look like MP3 has a flush and is through slowplaying now.

Still, he could have a worse king that he's raising with now that a diamond didn't fall on the turn, because he thinks he has SB beat and he wants to charge your naked A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

It's possible SB has you beat (I don't know why he's waking up on the 5), but I'm more worried about MP3. And I can understand folding, but I think I would call and see what fell on the river and how the action went.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised SB's turn donkbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

In the actual hand, I folded to the turn raise. The river was a 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB had two small diamonds for a flush made on the flop. MP3 had A2 with the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] -- making trips on the river, but still having a second best hand.

Here was my reasoning. SB had checked the flop and lead the turn. This usually is a sign of a strong hand (especially given the monotone board. With five players to the flop, I figured there was a good chance someone made a flush on the flop.

So, SB represents a strong hand and MP3's donk-raise represented being able to beat a strong hand. I'm drawing dead to a flush figured that I was likely behind to at least one of these guys.

A few people recommended raising pre-flop. I usually draw the line for raising calling between KQs/KQo. In this case, I was in early position, so thought limping in would be reasonable. In retrospect, in this hand, a raise would probably have won me the pot (as SB might have folded his two small diamonds!)

Still, is limping in pre-flop with KQo in early position a really bad idea? Should I usually be raising in this situation?

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

i WILL DEFINATELY raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet. HE donkbets on a non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] turn. that could mean a baby flush some of the time but i think its a weak made hand even more of the time.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
Still, is limping in pre-flop with KQo in early position a really bad idea? Should I usually be raising in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've found raising KQo really makes it easier to play. Not to surprising, as it's a top pair hand, and not very good multiway. KQs plays fine multiway, and it's almost easier to limp in and invite others along for the ride. Still, I usually raise both of 'em. Depends a bit on the table, but not all that much.

In fact, I'm going to really stress this point -- I love raising KQo from EP. Much more than AJo, which is the breaking point for most people on raise/call/fold and often gets discussed in the same breath. KQo is much easier to play from the flop on than AJ.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, I'm going to really stress this point -- I love raising KQo from EP. Much more than AJo, which is the breaking point for most people on raise/call/fold and often gets discussed in the same breath. KQo is much easier to play from the flop on than AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to prefer KQo to AJo, but I changed my mind when I moved up to 5/10 and my EP preflop raises began frequently getting me heads-up with the BB.

Now I like the extra showdown value of AJo.

And, to be honest, I'm not crazy about either hand anymore, if the action behind me doesn't fold to the blinds. It's not much fun playing OOP against a cold-caller or 3-bettor who's got a better hand (or at least a hand like 66 that you're chasing).

All the same, I continue raising AJo and KQo in EP.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
i WILL DEFINATELY raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet. HE donkbets on a non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] turn. that could mean a baby flush some of the time but i think its a weak made hand even more of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the flop had been checked through, then I agree that a turn lead is much more likely to represent a weak made hand. But since SB checked the flop and I led the flop betting, his sudden turn lead into the flop better strikes me as more likely to represent a real hand.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised SB's turn donkbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

gotta or fold it.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

I would fold / raise preflop, probably 80/20. KQs is more like call / raise 20/80.

I agree completely with raise turn, fold to a 3-bet. I think this is the best play, that way you charge a weaker made hand / drawing hand but can fold to a made flush.

True

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

I don't see why you are just calling the turn bet. If you think you are ahead, you have to raise to protect. If you think are behind, nothing but a fold makes sense.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
i WILL DEFINATELY raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet. HE donkbets on a non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree 100% with this line. I don't think there is any other way to play it. (Beside raising preflop, though the limp is not terrible.)

[ QUOTE ]
that could mean a baby flush some of the time ...

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a little confused by this though. I think a made flush either bets or checkraises... though people do some pretty dumb things sometimes.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i WILL DEFINATELY raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet. HE donkbets on a non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree 100% with this line. I don't think there is any other way to play it. (Beside raising preflop, though the limp is not terrible.)

[ QUOTE ]
that could mean a baby flush some of the time ...

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm a little confused by this though. I think a made flush either bets or checkraises... though people do some pretty dumb things sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jennifer Harmon in Super System 2 says that in Limit Poker the better play against good opponents is to only show aggression on the turn when you hold a low flush as your equity is hugely increased when the board doesn't become four flush.

True

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jennifer Harmon in Super System 2 says that in Limit Poker the better play against good opponents is to only show aggression on the turn when you hold a low flush as your equity is hugely increased when the board doesn't become four flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt this is the case here.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

That's a really good point. During the hand, the little voice inside me screamed "FLUSH" when SB bet. But I didn't think I had enough info to fold, especially since it's possible I'm up against a King-rag. However, if I call a turn bet, I am setting myself up to call a river bet if a harmless card falls. So, it's going to cost at least two bets to see a show down. If I raise the turn, and I am still facing a lot of action, then I can fold easily (or alternately, if my turn raise is called, it's possible that a baby flush will check this river).

So, in either case (call turn / raise turn) I am setting myself up to invest two bets, but the raise option defines my hand much better. In this case, I happened to get "lucky" that MP3's donk raise saved me a bet.

Re: KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action
 

I'm not a huge fan of Harmon's chapter in general, but that is beside the point here. There are several things that play in here, most notably relative position -- you want to be able face a hand that could potentially beat (like T ot J of that suit) you with cold calling if possible. Sometimes you can't. Even against good players (which we are probably not facing here given the preflop action) it very often correct just to take the equity edge on the flop and ram and jam a baby flush, as they will often be getting the odds to call down a single donk anyhow.