KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

villain here has numbers of 35/22/2 and an ATT to steal of 38. I have only played one hand with him, and it was really weird. it was one orbit earlier. it is below. this hand and my PT numbers are my only read on this dude.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Jd Js (one pair, jacks).
SB has Ah Ac (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: SB wins 6 BB. </font>


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

River: (7.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

I bet he gave himself a big pat on the back after that first one.

I don't like your turn bet. I don't see him folding absolutely anything that beats you, and you don't beat many hands in his range on that board. He's pretty aggressive, so getting c/r'd sucks. So just take the free one.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

[ QUOTE ]
I bet he gave himself a big pat on the back after that first one.

I don't like your turn bet. I don't see him folding absolutely anything that beats you, and you don't beat many hands in his range on that board. He's pretty aggressive, so getting c/r'd sucks. So just take the free one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am OOP, so i can't get c/r'ed. You don't think he folds AX here or a pp?

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

As long as he is raising his fair share of hands PF I don't have any qualms betting the turn to try and get him to fold Ax or a small pair. Against unknowns or little-knowns I generally assume they can lay down A high on the turn and sometimes a pair. Even if he doesn't lay down at least we have a good draw. The other annoying thing is that if we check he's likely to autobet any cards so I doubt we're getting a free card OOP and we'll have to fold the river UI those rare times we're ahead.

I like all streets.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

I don't think he's folding on the turn so why risk a raise? I'd just c/c.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

SOrry. Should've payed more attention. He's not folding AK, AQ, or A9 due to the board. He might fold a couple of others. I check/call.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

Would you bet out on the river/cr/cc if you check call the turn.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

I play it the same.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

I'd bet call any pair, c/r a straight.

For those advocating the turn bet: why? Give him a range of hands and look at the board, and understand that if villian has a smaller pocket pair, a high percentage of the time (greater than 90%, I'd guess) he's going to showdown after he calls a flop bet.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet call any pair, c/r a straight.

For those advocating the turn bet: why? Give him a range of hands and look at the board, and understand that if villian has a smaller pocket pair, a high percentage of the time (greater than 90%, I'd guess) he's going to showdown after he calls a flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero has 6 outs to the nuts, 2 outs to the near nuts, 6 somewhat tainted outs, some fold equity against Ax, and even a possibility of being ahead. A bet here seems alright to me.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

Why would we assume villain has a smaller pocket pair 90% of the time? I would guess we're aheads of villain a lot here, and we make up the difference with our minions of outs.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

You misunderstood me (poor sentence structure on my part, it was late). I'm saying that when he has a small pocket pair, after he calls the flop bet he's going to showdown the vast majority of the time. I just through the 90% of the time out there, based on experience.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero has 6 outs to the nuts, 2 outs to the near nuts, 6 somewhat tainted outs, some fold equity against Ax, and even a possibility of being ahead. A bet here seems alright to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that a bet is OK. Is it better than a check?

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

I think turn bet is debateable but not BAD. I like the way you played the hand.

Although on the hand 1, I'd be so tempted but probably wouldn't raise the river [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] (As i hit him on a 9/PP more often than an ace). p.s. yes im posting this after seeing the Showdown Info. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

--blind response--

I think I play it the same. In the first hand, some guys just get aces in short handed games and try to sneak them through the border so that they can show off later.

The read that I would look for on him is whether he autobets with air when it checks to him. If he gives too many free cards and he calls too much, then I start checking this turn. If he doesn't, I play it the same.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

In the first hand (OP has jacks), does anybody bet the turn? I think we dont want to risk a free card for someone holding a queen or king. After betting the turn we can probably check behind on the river with the same net cost to the OP.

If we get c/r on the turn, I think we can fold.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

[ QUOTE ]
if villian has a smaller pocket pair, a high percentage of the time (greater than 90%, I'd guess) he's going to showdown after he calls a flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think so? Villian is in position, so therefore may get to the river by just calling the flop bet. There is a good chance that Hero may check the turn, like he did in the first hand. Villian may have had a c/f plan on the turn.

I can't see how you get that 90% figure. This is so dependent on the situation and player. Only a player with poor post flop play will call down with a small pocket in this situation, or unless he thinks his opponent is overly aggressive. I can only assume that the majority of players with 30/20/2 stats play well post-flop, so therefore will not be calling down, unless they think oppenent has been overly aggressive.

If the villian was 45/10/1 the I could see an argument with 90%.

Trent.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can only assume that the majority of players with 30/20/2 stats play well post-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Stats don't say jack about post-flop play. We just saw him play aces like a total douche.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see how you get that 90% figure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither can I, as I mentioned. I guess a WTSD stat would be nice. I'm just basing it off of experience. But we can all agree he's never folding a J, T, 8, or 99. You might even be getting raised by one of those. He'll probably take another one off with 77. The only hands I see him tossing are weak Ax hands, maybe some really weak pairs like 55-22, though not always.

Someone mentioned if we check the turn, he'll likely auto-bet and we'll have to fold the river UI. I think we'll have to fold the river UI a lot, anyway. The turn bet might by us a free showdown, but if we're seeing the river I think we're losing UI the vast majority of the time.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

First of all, awesome read bob, this is one of the best reads I've seen given in the past few days.

2nd hand: I see no different way to play it. Are you considering check calling the turn?

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

I can only assume that the majority of players with 30/20/2 stats play well post-flop

Why? Stats don't say jack about post-flop play. We just saw him play aces like a total douche.



Agreed. There's no reason to assume that a 30/22/2 player is actually good post-flop.
I've been very near those numbers at times. Mostly in the 27/22/2 range...and my post-flop play at times is nothing short of awful.

In fact, there's no reason to believe that a 24/16 player is that great post-flop either.
Just as you really shouldn't assume that a 50/5 player isn't completely terrible post-flop.


some of those ultra-loose pre-flop guys actually make some pretty reasonable reads and bluffs post-flop and can be quite tricky....and if you suck post-flop as much as I do then your pre-flop advantage (from just playing better starting-cards) can quickly go out the window if you fail to adjust.

Re: KQo against Mr. Fancy pants
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can only assume that the majority of players with 30/20/2 stats play well post-flop

Why? Stats don't say jack about post-flop play. We just saw him play aces like a total douche.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. If a guy is playing 60% of his hands its more then LIKELY that he doesn't know how to play really well, therefore this will include his post-flop play. A guy who is playing 20% and aggrissivly obviously knows something about the game, so therefore will USUALLY play ok post-flop.

Sure, there are lots of loose players that play really well post flop, and tight aggressives that play really bad post-flop. But on average this will not be the case.

What you need is an example of play. I missed the resutls of the first hand. Obviously this suggests that he does not play well post-flop; therefore he is more inclined to call down with a small pp.

Trent.