Early hand in the Party 500k
 

Too weak tight?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB (t1480)
UTG (t1105)
UTG+1 (t935)
Hero (t1955)
MP1 (t985)
MP2 (t2060)
MP3 (t1510)
CO (t1480)
Button (t2120)
SB (t1400)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t30</font>, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls t30, SB calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t132.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t65</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, Button calls t200, SB folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (t597.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t250</font>, Button calls [t1890] , Hero folds.

Final Pot: t847.50

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

TPTK and a redraw to the nuts i'm gonna be in there. why the weak lead on the turn though?

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

fold preflop, no question. the blinds are so insignificant this early, and you have several players yet to act behind you. there is absolutely no reason to risk chips this early with a hand easily dominated.

had this not been raised, i would limp in with AJs, but had i been UTG or UTG+1, it is a muck for me.

as for how you played it, it looks obvious to me that the button has a set. shut down after getting a bet and significant raise cold called on this board, especially when the scare card comes on the turn. maybe he'll make it cheap enough for you to draw to the flush if you check it to him.

tripdad

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop, no question. the blinds are so insignificant this early, and you have several players yet to act behind you. there is absolutely no reason to risk chips this early with a hand easily dominated.

had this not been raised, i would limp in with AJs, but had i been UTG or UTG+1, it is a muck for me.

as for how you played it, it looks obvious to me that the button has a set. shut down after getting a bet and significant raise cold called on this board, especially when the scare card comes on the turn. maybe he'll make it cheap enough for you to draw to the flush if you check it to him.

tripdad

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fold preflop? are you outta yer damn mind? how do you ever think yer gonna win a tournament without getting a decent stack early sometimes? that is ridiculous advice. its not obvious at all to me that button has a set. its obvious he doesnt want a call on the turn. thats whats obvious. i get it in damn near every time here and live with my 8 to 14 outer if i was even behind to begin with. also, i hate the turn bet. check call or check shove. holla

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

TPTK and the nut draw on the turn, hmm, these are the times I wish Party had an allin button. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] If you were going to fold the turn, you should have check/called instead at the very least to see if you'd hit the backdoor draw to stack him.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

I've seen those minraises from EP with monsters so many times that they set off alarm bells.

I'd reraise to 100 preflop to find out if he has KK/AA or not. If he calls or reraises I'm done.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop, no question.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is no question, but the answer to the non-existent question is call.If UTG had AA KK QQ AK here 100% of the time- I'd still call. So small a bet compared to his stack, and he may very well have the best hand anyway.

As for the turn, your bet blows. I'm definitely checking- especially with my redraw. I'd probably follow raptors line and check/call or maybe if I'm feeling frisky I'll shove- but I don't like shoving.

Given your minature bet on the turn, you have to call as any reasonable thinking opponent would see this as weakness.

If you guys were deeper and you bet 3/4 pot and then he shoved... that'd be gross. The way this hand played out I like a call on the turn, though I wouldn't be "thrilled" to call.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

let me reiterate. folding preflop, for any reason here, is a horrendously bad error, and means you will likely never win a mtt with a field over 500, because you are WAYYYY Too weak tight. the end. thats the no question. holla

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

I agree that the turn bet was the worst thing about this hand. However, Tripdad suggested that because of the position and the relative size of the blinds to stack (M), that it's not worth playing AJs from an early position here. I do agree with him, but perhaps this _IS_ too tight. I really don't know. Obviously Raptor has had some great MTT success.

What do you do if the AJ misses the board completely?

I've read and reread the FAQ about exploiting edges and building a stack, I find that it's hard to incorporate the LAG style being a naturally TAG player. Maybe I have to start a new thread or just read and experiment, but I'd like to know if tight early can still win tourneys.

I apologize if this got off subject.

Pokern00b

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

[ QUOTE ]


What do you do if the AJ misses the board completely?

Pokern00b

[/ QUOTE ]

Throw it away - in this case it would have cost 30 out of 1955 chips.................

Having said that, I have no major MTT success´............

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do if the AJ misses the board completely?


[/ QUOTE ]

You do know you are allowed to fold, right?

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

Some folks are missing the huge implied odds involved here. If you pair your ace and nothing else you obviously have to tread carefully. But if you hit two pair or a flush draw, this may be your chance to double up.

Well worth the call.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some folks are missing the huge implied odds involved here. If you pair your ace and nothing else you obviously have to tread carefully. But if you hit two pair or a flush draw, this may be your chance to double up.

Well worth the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a problem with the "call because of huge implied odds arguement". Your arguement is to call with AJs, hoping to flop two pair or a flush draw, trusting that you will play carefully and not get in trouble if just an ace or jack flops.

If this is the case, then are you also calling with A3s? You can play this the same way as AJs, hoping to flop two pair or a flush draw. In fact this hand is better, because an A3 two pair is better disguised than an AJ two pair, and less vulnerable to straights.

Or how about 97s? Two pair, flush draw, and straight draw.

Or how about 65s?

Are you really going to be calling UTG raises, even if they are miniraises, with weak suited aces, suited two-gappers, or small suited connectors? Or is the secret reason that you are calling with AJs is because you are somewhat seduced by the pretty high cards?

And if you are being seduced by the high cards, then you are certainly risking more than t30.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

Yes I know that we are allowed to fold AJs if it misses the flop. I just find that sometimes I get myself into trouble when I play this hand from early position - which is why I avoid it altogether early.

I think more often than not AJ will miss the flop, which is why I brought up the question about what if it misses. I just don't think the hand is that good in early position.

That being said, I also note that my play is very tight, and that I'm not exploiting early edges, and that I am routinely busting out on AA KK etc. So the reason I ask what do you do if it misses, is because I want to hear if you make a continuation bet, or if you simply check and let it go.

Thanks for the thoughtful answers.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

you guys waste so much time on this board arguing pointless obvious crap

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

Solitaire, you give more credit to a PP player than I do. I am not convinced AJs is automatically behind a Level 1 mini-raise from UTG, that is the difference between this hand and the hands you reference. Maybe it is. I'm probably not putting my tourney life at risk with this hand unless I flop a monster or potential monster, but I am willing to splash around a little with it. You can't build your stack if you are unwilling to put chips into the pot (don't get me wrong, I consider myself TAG, I just think folding here is extremely weak).

If UTG is Dan Harrington, I MIGHT fold. As it is with an anonymous PP player early in a tourney, I have to look at this as a spot where I have to risk a small to moderate amount of chips for a potential moderate to large payoff.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

PokerNewbie,

Continuation bet after calling a UTG mini-raise? I think you need to review what a continuation bet is and when to use it.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

I call this raise with AJs 100% of the time, from any position.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerNewbie,

Continuation bet after calling a UTG mini-raise? I think you need to review what a continuation bet is and when to use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant opening the pot with AJ and then continuing to bet half the pot on the flop. I apologize for being unclear.

Tks,
PN

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

folding that turn is downright criminal

c/r allin. if he gives you a free card, np, river the nuts.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

also i want to address this fold preflop nonsense.

when sklansky says in his books, fold preflop to a raise with AJ, its because he assumes the people reading his book are beginners, and he doesnt think its +EV for a beginner to be mixed up postflop with a potentially dominated hand.

that being said, if you go your whole poker "career" folding potentially dominated hands, a) poker is going to be really boring, and b) you are going to be leaving a hell of a lot of chips on the table.

everyone says sklansky's books are the bible to playing perfect poker. that's just not true. they are made to try to prevent you from playing too much poker when you first start out, because you'll probably [censored] it up*. there's a reason why you'll see ted forrest call a raise in LP with QTo. it's not because ted forrest is a donkey.

* Disclaimer: I'm not all that good at poker either.

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

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folding that turn is downright criminal

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I agree now that either my turn bet should be bigger (~3/4 pot) or I should have C/R all in - in fact right after I made my small turn bet I didn't like it.

But... given that he went all in, I'm not sure what I beat that he could possibly be holding. If its not a set or 2-pair I'd be surprised. His cold-call on the flop to me is the greatest indication of this strength.

To me, this is how the hand went for him:

Flop - "Nice, I hit my set on the flop and someone raised the continuation bet, better just cold-call."

Turn - "Hmm, he bet about 1/2 pot, he must like his hand, but I'm not gonna let him draw for that cheap, how bout I bet THIS..."

Re: Early hand in the Party 500k
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
folding that turn is downright criminal

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree now that either my turn bet should be bigger (~3/4 pot) or I should have C/R all in - in fact right after I made my small turn bet I didn't like it.

But... given that he went all in, I'm not sure what I beat that he could possibly be holding. If its not a set or 2-pair I'd be surprised. His cold-call on the flop to me is the greatest indication of this strength.

To me, this is how the hand went for him:

Flop - "Nice, I hit my set on the flop and someone raised the continuation bet, better just cold-call."

Turn - "Hmm, he bet about 1/2 pot, he must like his hand, but I'm not gonna let him draw for that cheap, how bout I bet THIS..."

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That's exactly how I saw it. Not only that, his call was to your RERAISE with the original raiser still to act behind him. He likes his hand a lot.