50/100 vs mahatma
 

BB is fanta, and the flop bet has its reasons. As for history vs prah:

1) i've stacked him i believe twice in 25/50 when i flopped sets and played them slow (somewhat). Also he made a sick thin value bet vs me (1 card J hi flush vs my T hi flush) for a 20k pot ~10min before this (it was hu... fanta sat out for 2secs).


Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $100 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($9791)
BB ($14245)
Hero ($22666)
MP ($10050)
CO ($42615)
Button ($35180)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $350</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $1100, Hero calls $850.

Flop: ($3650) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1600</font>, CO calls $1600, BB folds.

Turn: ($6850) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">
Hero (19k he covr) ?</font>

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

converter messed up.. I presume you pushed?

I don't particularly like it...simply because I don't think he'd call you with a worse hand.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
converter messed up.. I presume you pushed?

I don't particularly like it...simply because I don't think he'd call you with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

converter isnt messed up... im asking for my action...

also; i'm an idiot and hadnt remembered the previous hand well (got 2 outted by AZK in 20k pot @ the same time as the previous hand... wat a donk [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). Exclude the "sick thin valu bet" from previous history tht was just bad memory... was a fairly standard hand.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

I think betting is out of question...I hate to say this but I think you gotta check and play poker.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

I would normally think check/call on turn is best, but I'm a little worried about what he called you with after a PF reraise on a dry flop, and now your flop bet size looks kind of crappy, because it doesn't tell us a lot about where he stands.

does he RR preflop with 88?

did you think about a huge 3-bet PF? did you think about dumping AKo OOP against him pf or would that just get you run over in this game?

I guess you do whatever you can to control pot size, though that may be futile.

Can you possibly check/fold this turn?

Tough spot.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

why lead the flop?

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
why lead the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

pm if u want teh answer. Had my reasons as i said.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

Are there any reasons for NOT checking the turn?

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are there any reasons for NOT checking the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is very likely that i have the best hand.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

This decision depends so much on flow and game play that I suspect you had a better sense of what to do in the moment that anyone can give you on this board now. That being said, I'll give it a whirl.

For a certain type of player, your smallish flop bet means one of two things -- either you flopped a set (probably kings) and are hoping that a weak lead will draw a reraise, or you have TT-QQ and hope that he completely whiffed. I don't have any idea whether Mahatma views you as this type of player, but maybe so given your description of the hands where you flopped a set.

Either way, if you lead the turn, I feel that he is going to give you credit for a hand. Put another way, I don't see him raising you on the turn (which is the real fear here) unless he beats a hand like AK.

If you check the turn, I think that he is going to check behind a lot of the time. Still, you are going to be in a difficult spot on the river because guys like Mahatma eat blocking bets for the lunch.

All things considered, if you think that he will read you as I described above, I vote for 3/4 pot bet on the turn. I would have hate to give him a free one if he has something like 67 here.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

But mahatma is known for bluffing in this situation, often all-in.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
But mahatma is known for bluffing in this situation, often all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only seen Mahatma play a few hundred hands, but he has pushed it all-in EVERY TIME that he got to the turn and there was more than $5K in the pot. Is this what happened? I would insta-call his push and expect to be ahead most of the time.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But mahatma is known for bluffing in this situation, often all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only seen Mahatma play a few hundred hands, but he has pushed it all-in EVERY TIME that he got to the turn and there was more than $5K in the pot. Is this what happened? I would insta-call his push and expect to be ahead most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, you haven't seen very many hands i think is the problem here. particularly not deeper stacked hands.

as for "his push" he didn't make one in this hand up to now, as far as i can tell it's hero to act on the turn.

c

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

I think bet $2,300 and fold to a big reraise.

If you just bet the pot on the flop then you would not have as complicated a position.

Then again I play low limits full ring, so this advice may not be relevant to the current scenario.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

durrrr,

almost all of the hands i've watched or read of mahatmas are from shorter handed play. in such play he can have almost any (and often does) two cards after his preflop reraise. does that change when he's playing closer to full, particularly against a raiser from utg? does that change against you in specific?

c

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think bet $2,300 and fold to a big reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line would get you absolutely slaughtered in the big UB games in general, let alone OOP against Mahatma in a big pot that he reraised preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
If you just bet the pot on the flop then you would not have as complicated a position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of me agrees w/ this, but something tells me that durrrr doesn't necessarily hate the "complicated" spot in which he found himself on the turn in this hand . . . but I could be wrong . . .

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
BB is fanta, and the flop bet has its reasons. As for history vs prah:

1) i've stacked him i believe twice in 25/50 when i flopped sets and played them slow (somewhat). Also he made a sick thin value bet vs me (1 card J hi flush vs my T hi flush) for a 20k pot ~10min before this (it was hu... fanta sat out for 2secs).


Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $100 BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($9791)
BB ($14245)
Hero ($22666)
MP ($10050)
CO ($42615)
Button ($35180)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $350</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $1100, Hero calls $850.

Flop: ($3650) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1600</font>, CO calls $1600, BB folds.

Turn: ($6850) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">
Hero (19k he covr) ?</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey durrrr,

Do you think you're ahead on the turn here? Or, I suppose the more pertinent question is, Are you willing to go broke w/ your hand vs. Mahat here?

Because you know these things better than we can from the peanut gallery, and as you and anyone else who's ever played v. Mahatma knows, his range for calling behind on a flop such as this vs. an aggro player like yourself is [censored] huuuuuuuuuge.

That said, if my intuitions about the reasoning behind your flop bet are correct, then I kind of fancy check/call the turn, and then faux block-bet/value bet the river and call a raise . . .

-neon

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think bet $2,300 and fold to a big reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line would get you absolutely slaughtered in the big UB games in general, let alone OOP against Mahatma in a big pot that he reraised preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
If you just bet the pot on the flop then you would not have as complicated a position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of me agrees w/ this, but something tells me that durrrr doesn't necessarily hate the "complicated" spot in which he found himself on the turn in this hand . . . but I could be wrong . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

How does Hero odd-sized flop bet change your analysis, if at all?

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]


Hey durrrr,

Do you think you're ahead on the turn here? Or, I suppose the more pertinent question is, Are you willing to go broke w/ your hand vs. Mahat here?

Because you know these things better than we can from the peanut gallery, and as you and anyone else who's ever played v. Mahatma knows, his range for calling behind on a flop such as this vs. an aggro player like yourself is [censored] huuuuuuuuuge.

That said, if my intuitions about the reasoning behind your flop bet are correct, then I kind of fancy check/call the turn, and then faux block-bet/value bet the river and call a raise . . .

-neon

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you and I are advocating different lines based on exactly the same reasoning about Mahatma's perspective on durrr's hand range. I now think that your line is more profitable, although higher variance.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think bet $2,300 and fold to a big reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line would get you absolutely slaughtered in the big UB games in general, let alone OOP against Mahatma in a big pot that he reraised preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
If you just bet the pot on the flop then you would not have as complicated a position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of me agrees w/ this, but something tells me that durrrr doesn't necessarily hate the "complicated" spot in which he found himself on the turn in this hand . . . but I could be wrong . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

How does Hero odd-sized flop bet change your analysis, if at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually think it changes things for villain a lot more than it does for durrrr, because Mahatma is liable to be calling behind on the flop w/ just as huge a range when hero pots the flop as he is when durrrr makes the bet he did. What I think it did, or what I would imagine it's intent was, is to muddy Mahatma's sense for durrrr's hand range, and to plant the idea in villain's mind that hero is weak, and give him every opportunity to bluff at the pot on later streets.

And perhaps to set the stage for a suspiciously large value bet on the river? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

But, what do I know . . .

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

fold turn and show [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

You obviously have a hidden motive for betting the flop. IMO posting this hand without being willing to discuss it is absurd. It's crucial to the hand.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

agreed.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
That said, if my intuitions about the reasoning behind your flop bet are correct, then I kind of fancy check/call the turn, and then faux block-bet/value bet the river and call a raise . . .

-neon

[/ QUOTE ]

imo that is the most vital part, it would not be bet/fold, it would be bet/call, because calling the turn to lead the river is the most easily recognizable showdown line, and obv hat will pick up on it, and thus could raise w/ nothing (if he was bluffing the turn)

that in fact could be the best line.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That said, if my intuitions about the reasoning behind your flop bet are correct, then I kind of fancy check/call the turn, and then faux block-bet/value bet the river and call a raise . . .

-neon

[/ QUOTE ]

imo that is the most vital part, it would not be bet/fold, it would be bet/call, because calling the turn to lead the river is the most easily recognizable showdown line, and obv hat will pick up on it, and thus could raise w/ nothing (if he was bluffing the turn)

that in fact could be the best line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kinda sexy, ain't it? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

I understand not wanting to give something up, but then why not just discuss it over aim?

I don't see how any input is useful being as you already have something in mind with the flop bet.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
You obviously have a hidden motive for betting the flop. IMO posting this hand without being willing to discuss it is absurd. It's crucial to the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was about the BB, it is not an important part of the hand. Prah knew why i did it- and it doesnt give away any huge tells or anything like that. I cant go into more detail w/o giving wayy too much away.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think bet $2,300 and fold to a big reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line would get you absolutely slaughtered in the big UB games in general, let alone OOP against Mahatma in a big pot that he reraised preflop..

[/ QUOTE ]

True.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you just bet the pot on the flop then you would not have as complicated a position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of me agrees w/ this, but something tells me that durrrr doesn't necessarily hate the "complicated" spot in which he found himself on the turn in this hand . . . but I could be wrong . . .

[/ QUOTE ]

True.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]



Hey durrrr,

Do you think you're ahead on the turn here? Or, I suppose the more pertinent question is, Are you willing to go broke w/ your hand vs. Mahat here?

Because you know these things better than we can from the peanut gallery, and as you and anyone else who's ever played v. Mahatma knows, his range for calling behind on a flop such as this vs. an aggro player like yourself is [censored] huuuuuuuuuge.

That said, if my intuitions about the reasoning behind your flop bet are correct, then I kind of fancy check/call the turn, and then faux block-bet/value bet the river and call a raise . . .

-neon

[/ QUOTE ]


While mahatma rarely slowplays- the flop is a spot where he would (b/c of the over-aggro BB); however i still think the huge majority of the time that i am behind on the flop i am getting raised by him (if he has a set- AA may call some % b/c it is nervous also- as well as some % to slowplay). That being said the turn is not a good card for me. Prah obviously has a fairly large reraising range preflop; and he also just called my flop bet meaning hands like 79s, 56s etc. are fairly likely. So are KQs, TT etc.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
But mahatma is known for bluffing in this situation, often all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, which is why i checked the turn.

TURN ACTION
 

i checked he bet 3600. My action now?

Re: TURN ACTION
 

[ QUOTE ]
i checked he bet 3600. My action now?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would call the bet and check any river

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

durr,

"it was about the BB, it is not an important part of the hand. Prah knew why i did it- and it doesnt give away any huge tells or anything like that. I cant go into more detail w/o giving wayy too much away. "

Someday I hope to get to this level of complex multi-level thinking where things that are not important to the hand are known by other opponents in the hand but are too secret to go into detail about. This sounds like really awesome multilevel metagame stuff or something. It's like, you and Prah have this level of play going on here and are just toying with the helpless BB in ways that most of us on this forum couldn't even begin to comprehend. I hope someday you are able to give us a hint of detail about the complex stuff going on here.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
durr,

"it was about the BB, it is not an important part of the hand. Prah knew why i did it- and it doesnt give away any huge tells or anything like that. I cant go into more detail w/o giving wayy too much away. "

Someday I hope to get to this level of complex multi-level thinking where things that are not important to the hand are known by other opponents in the hand but are too secret to go into detail about. This sounds like really awesome multilevel metagame stuff or something. It's like, you and Prah have this level of play going on here and are just toying with the helpless BB in ways that most of us on this forum couldn't even begin to comprehend. I hope someday you are able to give us a hint of detail about the complex stuff going on here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would have realized this very quickly as well. I said in my initial post "flop bet had its reasons," I don't see why this cant be accepted easily and instead focus the discussion on the turn. The flop was not an interesting street- i was very confident in my action; on the turn however i didnt know what to do (becuase of that particular card).

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

durrrr,

"You would have realized this very quickly as well."

Oh, in that case, ignore my post. I now realize you were not referring to awesome players like me and you and your comments were directed at tourney donkeys like ZJ and strassa.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

durrr,

if you know "what's going on on the flop" and your opponent knows "what's going on on the flop" and you know that his action is directly related to "knowing what's going on on the flop," wouldn't you agree that it might be a necessity for those of us trying to analyze the hand to have some clue of what additional factors mahatma is taking into account before we can consider putting him on a range of hands or possible actions? understanding much of the analysis of mahatma hands comes from simply saying "my hand is top pair, he often puts in huge bets with much less, i'll call anything," i really don't like looking at the hands in such a way. when there's more information about what's driving his decisions that you are aware of and are not telling us, it's very difficult to think through the hand.

if you didn't want to tell us about what the thing about the bb player is that makes you bet this flop, i think it would have been wise to not tell us the identity of the player, and instead tell us the relevant information about the player that drives your decision making throughout.

c

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

[ QUOTE ]
durrr,

if you know "what's going on on the flop" and your opponent knows "what's going on on the flop" and you know that his action is directly related to "knowing what's going on on the flop," wouldn't you agree that it might be a necessity for those of us trying to analyze the hand to have some clue of what additional factors mahatma is taking into account before we can consider putting him on a range of hands or possible actions? understanding much of the analysis of mahatma hands comes from simply saying "my hand is top pair, he often puts in huge bets with much less, i'll call anything," i really don't like looking at the hands in such a way. when there's more information about what's driving his decisions that you are aware of and are not telling us, it's very difficult to think through the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if i posted a hand where i had AA and i limped in order to reraise later. Instead the flop came AKQ monotone (w/e make up a situation), and i asked how to play it from there. Would you want to know why i chose this time to limp? I see hands like this often and they usually get adequate responses- however all anyone has asked me is about the flop bet.

[ QUOTE ]
if you didn't want to tell us about what the thing about the bb player is that makes you bet this flop, i think it would have been wise to not tell us the identity of the player, and instead tell us the relevant information about the player that drives your decision making throughout.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

1) im not going to give away future EV to make an internet forum happy.

2) the flop was not an interesting part of the hand.

3) the player should be able to realize who he was w/o me revealing his identity.


If i say "leave it alone" it means that street is unimportant for discussion. If you dont agree w/ "my read" that its unimportant for discussion- then you cant put any faith in my reads for the rest of the hand and therefore have no information to post on (so just dont reply to my posts).

This isnt meant solely at you citanul- but at every1 who focused on the flop. Poker isnt a game of complete information; i'd like a judgement based on what you know (which as i said is almost exactly the same as what i know- since the reasons behind my flop bet dont affect the turn action). Prah isnt telepathic as far as i know- so he doesnt know my exact reasons- although he can guess (just as you can); he just knows that they focus on the big blind. The flop line is fine- read into it as u like but this is my last reply to anyone who is focusing on it. This thread could have been very interesting and IMO beneficial for a learning/discussion experience however most replies focused on a pointless portion of the hand.

I refuse to argue/defend something which i consider so inconsequential anymore so I'm not going to respond to anyone else asking the same questions about the flop.

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

i'm super confused, but i'm willing to disregard the flop i guess.

i'm confused because of your "the player should be able to figure out who he is without me revealing his identity. you posted who the player was in your original post.

anyway, the questioning on the flop bet i think mostly arose *because* you made such a point of "it has its reasons but i don't want to talk about them." it makes people want to know what they are. for instance if you randomly had a player who is going to push there often and with such crap that you'll be happy to call a push on the flop, we would want to know that. in a later post you even said it's "because of the over-aggro bb..."

i'll try to be back later with actual thoughts on the hand's play. sorry for the inconvenience.

c

Re: 50/100 vs mahatma
 

btw, your call preflop was pretty loose.

Re: TURN ACTION
 

[ QUOTE ]
i checked he bet 3600. My action now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise to $8200 and fold to a push??? I dont know this is really a tough spot.

Maybe this can help, how often do you have air on the flop?

I guess he can have KK here and given your description of the bb was hoping he'd come over the top?

My least favorite line here is check calling the turn, and then checking the river. I think your going to get run over a lot if you play it that way.