What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

I have no idea how to proceed, I'm new to the table.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG ($148.19)
MP ($93.50)
CO ($77.70)
Button ($49.10)
SB ($85.15)
Hero ($102.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $1.50, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($8) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $6</font>, UTG calls $6, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $20</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ???</font>

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

I generally pop it up to like $65 here with the intention of calling an all-in, but I think that I play these types of big draws too aggressively and it's one of my leaks.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

push

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

I'm probably folding here.

In my younger days I would get crazy agressive with these pair+flush draws and run into 2 pair and sets alot.

Also, UTG looks to be drawing and could easily have two of your spades.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

Playing huge draws aggressively is hardly a leak.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

Poooooooooooooooooosh.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Playing huge draws aggressively is hardly a leak.

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top pair and non-nut flush draw?

I don't think this is a huge draw IMO.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

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push

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This is what I've been doing lately but I"m starting to question the wisdom of this. We have no fold equity against two pair or a set and we are behind both. It's a different situations with combination straight/flush draws. But top pair weak kicker+flush draw isn't all its cracked up to be. Just my opinion. About the best thing we can hope for EV wise is that he folds TPTK.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 8s 4s 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 9s 471 47.58 507 51.21 12 1.21 0.482
Ah 9h 507 51.21 471 47.58 12 1.21 0.518

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 8s 4s 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 9s 459 46.36 526 53.13 5 0.51 0.466
9h 8h 526 53.13 459 46.36 5 0.51 0.534

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 8s 4s 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 9s 316 31.92 674 68.08 0 0.00 0.319
4c 4d 674 68.08 316 31.92 0 0.00 0.681

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

I think we are overplaying these hands in general. He isnt doing this w/out 2pair or better a vast majority of the time, and we are against those hands (barely). This play would work better at higher limits because it looks so much like a set but I think here at low limits we are just coinflipping our stacks away. That beind said, is it ok to just call and see a turn.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Playing huge draws aggressively is hardly a leak.

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I think it ceratinly is when you're in a situation where, very often, your 2 pair and trip outs are no good.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Playing huge draws aggressively is hardly a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a huge draw.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

I'm all in here without much hesitation, and I agree with the other posters as to being unsure whether or not its the right play.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

This is a pretty easy fold, IMO. I think the bet on the flop might be a mistake. An alternative line might be to check and call a smallish bet on the flop. While you've got a potentially good draw, there are also two active players behind you. I would check to the PF raiser.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Playing huge draws aggressively is hardly a leak.

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This isn't a huge draw.

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Well, he has 16 outs against an overpair (other than JJ) or bottom 2 pair, 13 outs against TPTK, JJ or 2 pair and still 9 outs with a backdoor FH possible against a set, so I think that he has a lot of equity here, the only question I see is whether or not CO's hand range is restricted only to the hands where our 2 pair and 3 of a kind outs are no good, and whether or not the fact that UTG is coming along could kill some of our outs.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

it's not a huge draw. He has TPWK and a potentially beaten flush draw.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Playing huge draws aggressively is hardly a leak.

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This isn't a huge draw.

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Yeah. Especially given the action, we can't even expect to have the best draw here that often.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

Calling here would be bad. Pushing may clean our remaining flush outs if UTG has a higher flush draw and folds. This is by no means a "clear fold". The only reason people are second guessing the push line is because of the narrowed hand range CO will often have here as seen from past experiences, cutting down a lot of our outs.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's not a huge draw. He has TPWK and a potentially beaten flush draw.

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I think "potentially" is the key there, and you do realize that CO can't have both a better hand AND a better draw, right?

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

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Calling here would be bad. Pushing may clean our remaining flush outs if UTG has a higher flush draw and folds. This is by no means a "clear fold".

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If UTG folds two spades and villain calls with the previously described narrow range we are double screwed. And if one of them is willing to call a push with no pair and a better flush draw, even with two overs, thats a good result.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 8s 4s 9d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 9s 517 52.22 473 47.78 0 0.00 0.522
As Ts 473 47.78 517 52.22 0 0.00 0.478

As I said earlier I've been pushing here but I think its a leak. People don't reraise the pot and call a push with hands I want to gamble with here. Conversely, they don't usually raise the pot and fold to a push with hands I want folding. But this is debatable and game/player dependant.

It may be semantics but I consider this a strong draw but not a big/monster draw given the action. If we can put CO squarely on TPTK or an overpair that he is capable of folding a decent percentage of the time it's a good push.

I think part of the attraction to pushing here is not having to making a tougher turn decision.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

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[ QUOTE ]
it's not a huge draw. He has TPWK and a potentially beaten flush draw.

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I think "potentially" is the key there, and you do realize that CO can't have both a better hand AND a better draw, right?

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good point, you are correct from what i see.. he can't have a better hand and a better draw.

if he has better hand, then you have "24 simple outs" over two cards.

if he has better draw, you're ahead, but now he probably has the "30 outs" over two cards.

i forgot to account for the fact that the some of the other flush cards are likely out of the deck. but i'd say you are 42%-43% chance to win minimum... sorry, if i forgot that there was a 3rd guy??? but he'd probably help the situation EV-wise.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

Yea but

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
{ Js9s }: 15.0609 % 15.06% 00.00%
{ AsTs }: 41.1960 % 41.20% 00.00%
{ QcQd }: 43.7431 % 43.74% 00.00%

vs

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
{ Js9s }: 50.1010 % 50.10% 00.00%
{ QcQd }: 49.8990 % 49.90% 00.00%

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yea but

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
{ Js9s }: 15.0609 % 15.06% 00.00%
{ AsTs }: 41.1960 % 41.20% 00.00%
{ QcQd }: 43.7431 % 43.74% 00.00%

vs

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
{ Js9s }: 50.1010 % 50.10% 00.00%
{ QcQd }: 49.8990 % 49.90% 00.00%

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Did you kill two more spades in the last one?

Not that it makes a huge difference but that was my point.

edit: and that's putting the villain squarely on an overpair. Here's the narrow range that I've been seeing lately when I push in these spots with the added pleasure of two more dead spades.

Board: 8s 4s 9d
Dead: Ks Ts

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.9043 % 40.66% 00.24% { Js9s }
Hand 2: 59.0957 % 58.85% 00.24% { TT+, 88, 44, A9s, 98s, A9o, 98o }

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

had you thought about check the flop?

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

I'd probably fold this and wait for a better opportunity. Here's why:

Against a set (88,44), we're behind about 30/70. Zero chance of fold equity.

Against 2 pair, we're about 45/55. Might get some fold equity here, but it's still pretty even.

Against overpairs (KK/AA), we're almost dead even, but we get a lot better fold equity, imo.

I don't see A9 reraising like this at all.

So, it comes down to how you know the player handles preflop situations. With only a $2 call here, and no re-raise, I'm guessing he's on a set or 2-pair.

Just my 2 cents.

Anyone else?

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 45.2935 % 45.29% 00.00% { Js9s }
Hand 2: 54.7065 % 54.71% 00.00% { QcQd }

Thats with the dead spades. The only time we are in a really bad spot is if they both come along. Pushing at least one of them out in this spot is always going to be beneficial to our equity. Yea, AsTs calling if the other guy folds is a very good, albeit unlikely, result.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

Fold.

You have little fold equity, the times you get a call you will be crushed, your hand is either not good at the moment or your draws will not be live.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

If he's got a better flush draw--a push will be giving him (well he'll think that) odds to chase against you and you definitely do not want that to call. He's going to fold a straight draw with that push. I think pushing is -EV in this situation three handed. I'd say fold because something here is beat pretty bad or both (either hand or draw). Calling won't work because everyone (well everyone at these limits) fears flushes. Raising won't work cause a bigger draw might chase with you. If CO has a set--you're dead in this hand.

I think you have to lead this flop. He flopped top pair with a flush draw--it's not like the other guy was automatically going to fire like a nutso after a pathetic min raise.

He hit the flop huge but there's a huge potential (UTG might easily have a straight draw) for you to win not much or lose a lot.

I strongly believe pushing with weak hands like this is a huge leak in a lot of the people's games. I know you want some deception but since when has ANYONE ever paid attention in these limits?

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

Calling is almost certainly superior to folding. You're getting 3:1 immediate odds, and if UTG overcalls you are getting almost exactly the correct price to draw at the flush all by itself. Your flush will be good the majority of the time that it hits and since you bet the flop, your hand is somewhat disguised.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

No way this is a push. He may be doing exacty what you are doing with K,6 suited, or A,4 suited. My point is your Jack high flush is a mediocre flush in this situation. Even if you hit your hand you don't want to push. Fold.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

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it's not a huge draw. He has TPWK and a potentially beaten flush draw.

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My point exactly. fold.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
No way this is a push. He may be doing exacty what you are doing with K,6 suited, or A,4 suited. My point is your Jack high flush is a mediocre flush in this situation. Even if you hit your hand you don't want to push. Fold.

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I've already said this but I'll say it again. If he has a bigger flush draw getting all-in with him is a good result, even if he has two overs. It's the other factors that might make calling preferable.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

opps.

I think this is a difficult hand. UTG raised preflop and only calls when you lead the flop. I think he will frequently have overcards, with one or two spades(somethimes none). CO raises which seems like some kind of made hand. This might be something like(44,88,99,98s or tt+).
If i call and UTG calls what is my plan for the turn if a spade comes? What do i do on a non spade turn? Plan when an overcard hits?
I kind of like the push(but this might be something that i have left from my SNG playing [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]) , but it depends on the amount of FE i belive i have here. Also i am worried that there might be "dead spades" in the UTG hand. If called i think it will be from CO.
Also folding is not out of the question.
I am confused here.(as usuall)

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
No way this is a push. He may be doing exacty what you are doing with K,6 suited, or A,4 suited. My point is your Jack high flush is a mediocre flush in this situation. Even if you hit your hand you don't want to push. Fold.

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There are no other spade flush draw+pair hands possible on this board (I'm assuming by A4s you meant Axs). You are 60/40 vs a hand like Ks6s and 50/50 vs a hand like As Ts. With the dead money in the pot, getting all in vs this is good. This has already been stated more than once.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

We could easily be up agaisnt a made str8, a set, two pair, a bigger flush draw, or an overpair.

If I call and a spade hits the turn I am looking to get my stack in the middle on the turn.

So should we fold this or call, my vote is call

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

What I meant to say is that folding&gt;pushing. You are right about calling &gt; folding.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

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We could easily be up agaisnt a made str8,

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On a T94 board? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

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We could easily be up agaisnt a made str8, a set, two pair, a bigger flush draw, or an overpair.

If I call and a spade hits the turn I am looking to get my stack in the middle on the turn.

So should we fold this or call, my vote is call

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There is no made str8. About 50/50 vs two pair. About 50/50 vs an overpair. 60/40 or 50/50 vs higher flush draw. Set is only disaster, and you are 32% vs that. Plenty of dead money already in the pot. You may have a hard time getting your stack in the middle when/if the flush hits on the turn, and may likely get shut out on the turn or even fold the best hand. Its possible that you may only get played back at further if opponent hit his higher flush depending on his holding if the flush card comes, although since you did lead for the pot, there is a point that your hand is SOMEWHAT disguised.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

"I think "potentially" is the key there, and you do realize that CO can't have both a better hand AND a better draw, right?" No, but he can easily have one or the other.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

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"I think "potentially" is the key there, and you do realize that CO can't have both a better hand AND a better draw, right?" No, but he can easily have one or the other.

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I agree, but that means that OP either has the best hand, or upwards of 15 outs and is a favorite.

Re: What I thought was a great flop became a difficult flop decision
 

Fold. Live to fight another day.
"The better part of valor is discretion", Shakespeare.