200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

8 handed. I've been playing for an hour or two and haven't won any pots. I've played a decent amount of them and it just hasn't been going my way.

I raise black 4's utg+1, liz lieu (sp?) 3 bets 2 spots later. I don't know that much about her game other than schneids says he's pretty sure she plays pretty well and that she often plays big like 400/800. We haven't banged heads yet though.

I call.

flop J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check she bets, I call.

turn 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, she bets, I call.

river J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, she raises and it feels kinda weak, I?

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

The correct play here is to ask her to marry you, she is hot and good at poker. Onto the actual hand, if it feels weak, 3 betting is waaay superior to calling IMO, there is no reason you cant have a jack here, and you're 3 bet should get her to fold some hands that you are behind.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

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Onto the actual hand, if it feels weak, 3 betting is waaay superior to calling IMO, there is no reason you cant have a jack here, and you're 3 bet should get her to fold some hands that you are behind.


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BK raised preflop UTG + 1. He checkcalled flop. He checkcalled turn. He donk bet the river. On teh river, there are two Jacks on board.

Liz has all the reason in the world to believe that BK ain't got Jack.

BK obviously value bet the river. Normally, I would fold to that river raise. Here, I would call just to see what's up. Stupid sounding reason I know but that's what I would do. I would not 3 bet. I simply don't see her dropping a better hand.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

God I always call this stupid raise online and then get mad at myself for betting the river without intending to call the raise. If it feels kind of weak that is enough reason to atleast call. But if u find yourself always betting this river and calling the raise then u need to stop betting it in the first place, cause the default play here is clearly value bet and fold to a raise. Either way these 200-400 posts are the best, keep em coming

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

I've never felt betting this rivers was worth it. I get raised too much because my bet looks like I've got nothing, but I constantly worry I'm getting raised by nothing so I'm tempted to call. Someone here suggests a 3 bet, but I think that is crazy. They aren't going to fold. Nobody ever folds.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

definitely call the raise. expect to see 88 or something as well as AK and AQ and worse sometimes, and obviously AJ, etc. ive played with her a handful of times and you play way better and think about the game way more. btw she's calling you down 100% of the time there if she has anything better than A high, this was like that thing we were talking about, these people always call down, they dont laydown hands like you and other 2+2 guys do.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

Can someone confirm that she's the original floater?

~D

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

she doesnt want you to fold mr. kick...she wants you to die. you got wayyy to far off the winning poker reservation here and paid the price.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

Yes, I can confirm that she was one of the few people who inspired the term Floater ("trademark MS aka Nomar)

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

Looks good to me. Its kinda close but since her three betting range is fairly big, and there are ton of draws that you could have missed I think you need to bet. If you feel like you cant fold to a raise, and she is going to be poping you with stuff like 99 for value then it probably becomes a tougher decision. Given the board and the action I really dont think you can fold the river, especailly if you feel like you have a read.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

What on earth did you expect to have happen when you raise black 4's in EP in a 2-4 game? Oh yeah, I wouldn't fold the river. I wouldn't have bet the river, either.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

[ QUOTE ]
Looks good to me. Its kinda close but since her three betting range is fairly big, and there are ton of draws that you could have missed I think you need to bet. If you feel like you cant fold to a raise, and she is going to be poping you with stuff like 99 for value then it probably becomes a tougher decision. Given the board and the action I really dont think you can fold the river, especailly if you feel like you have a read.

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Do we really think her 3 betting range is that big here? We raised utg+1.
I think the preflop play stinks by the way. Just muck the 4s.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

I only said her three bet range is fairly large because the few times I've played with her she opened and three bet a lot more than other good players. I guess basically Im saying I think AQ is in her range and its another hand that Bike can beat. BTW I agree its best to just fold the fours.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I can confirm that she was one of the few people who inspired the term Floater ("trademark MS aka Nomar)

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I think that makes it a call, unless a weak-seeming raise from a floater is usually a hand.

~D

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

i dont get it....why are you in this hand? 8 handed i fold 44 in EP all the time...

Barron

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

i believe this is chip spewage. i check and encourage ace high to bluff at it

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

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I wouldn't fold the river. I wouldn't have bet the river, either.

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Ive played with her as well and I cant see folding to her here but I would never bet in this spot against her either. I think 3betting may be superior to calling after she raises but its v. close.

-Brad

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've never felt betting this rivers was worth it. I get raised too much because my bet looks like I've got nothing, but I constantly worry I'm getting raised by nothing so I'm tempted to call. Someone here suggests a 3 bet, but I think that is crazy. They aren't going to fold. Nobody ever folds.

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You Sucker and Brad have me convinced. A check call might be a little better than bet call here. I think it depends on how often she is gonna follow through on the turn without a pair, whether or not we have to pay off a raise, how often she is gonna value raise us with thin hands, and how often she bets the river with air when we check. Taking everything into consideration I think you guys are right.

Also no way I'm gonna put 800 in on the river. I dont think she has 55-1010 enough and even when she does she might not lay down.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont get it....why are you in this hand? 8 handed i fold 44 in EP all the time...

Barron

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I agree. I dont get why your in this hand. I'm guessing you randomly pick times to do weird things?? & alot of those times they end up being hands you post??

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

I don't like any part of it. The times I'll raise a small pair like this UTG, is when I feel I'm getting too much respect, the game is particularily (weak) tight, or I've been playing really tight for some reason (preferrably some combination of all three). But you said you've played a decent amount of pots, so I don't get your pre-flop play.

I'm also not thrilled with your post-flop line. You're check/calling, why? To induce bets from a worse hand? I think you should either play your 4's for the best hand, or give up contesting this pot on the turn when the 3rd heart hits. Had a rag fell, I might like c/r'ng the turn, but you're too likely to be called by a single heart now and this makes for a harder read. You're in bad shape. 4th pair, both black, and out of position. For cryin' out loud, LAY ONE DOWN, man....

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the river. You bet, why? For value? To get a better hand to fold? The 2nd jack makes her MORE likely to call, not less. After being raised on the river, I don't think it matters much what you do. Fold, call, or re-raise. This hand is like a flower in a hurricane. Who knows where you're at? You've been guessing all the way up until this point, so just make one more guess and hope you're next hand is either legit or complete trash so that it will be easier to play.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

have mucked up this hand... by making it possible to get played off the best hand here. Nice donk bet on the end! I don't know how you can call, but I also don't know how I could fold either. Both leave terrible after effects to your metagame image.

Donking and folding looks bad as well as donking and calling looks bad... even if you have the best hand. Check call would of been better if you want to show the hand down. Donk betting is bad with that river b/c she knows that you don't have a J and you allow her to play you off the best hand. She correctly reasons that you would n't play a jack like that over the course of the entire hand.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

ive played with her before and my basic read on her is that shes very retardo preflop but her postflop game is very tight (when she raises, it's generally something that has me crushed) and generally she doesnt raise that river without something that beats you. other people will disagree but based on my experience with her i think it's a fold.i guess you're thinking about 3betting but i dont think she folds TT--88 here.


also i dont like your river bet.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

I don't mind the river bet against Liz, because she is very aggro and specially if you have a bit of a weak tight image, she might think raising is her only way to win with an AK type hand. Just make sure you call the raise. I think check calling the river is close. I would never check fold to her on that board.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

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Yes, I can confirm that she was one of the few people who inspired the term Floater ("trademark MS aka Nomar)

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I never thought of her as a floater. She is friends with all of the floaters, but when I played with her, she tended to be doing a lot raising, not floating. I consider her a very good LAG.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Looks good to me. Its kinda close but since her three betting range is fairly big, and there are ton of draws that you could have missed I think you need to bet. If you feel like you cant fold to a raise, and she is going to be poping you with stuff like 99 for value then it probably becomes a tougher decision. Given the board and the action I really dont think you can fold the river, especailly if you feel like you have a read.

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Do we really think her 3 betting range is that big here? We raised utg+1.
I think the preflop play stinks by the way. Just muck the 4s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the preflop play stinks bad b/c BK has been playing pots but not dragging any pots. IE his image is terrible. I think her 3 bet range could be quite wide b/c of how BK has been playing. He has been playing pots and losing, seems like ripe time to take a shot at BK by MS Lieu.

On a side note... I agree with whoever said to ask her to marry you... she is definitely good looking.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

someone please explain to me what a floater is?

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

[ QUOTE ]
someone please explain to me what a floater is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

I believe it's someone who makes loose calls of raises preflop in order to 'outplay' the raiser postflop.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

haven't read the replies, but my experence is she is a rock, adn so you are toast. but the pot is big enough i think you need to call. but generally i think pf was bad and the rest is standard, tho you might be able to fold the turn.
dave

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

no one in a 2-4 game has ever or will ever fold a hand that is beating you on the river in this spot. ever.
dave

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

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but my experence is she is a rock

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have played a good amount with her online and my experiences are far different.

-Brad

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but my experence is she is a rock

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have played a good amount with her online and my experiences are far different.

-Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played with her screename many times but that doesn't mean it couldn't be one of her friends playing.

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

i have just played a few 1-2 live sessions with her last year at the wsop, so i could ealy be very wrong.
dave

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

8 handed game - you raise with 4-4 in early position. Then you get isolated, go into check-call-mode and finally try to make a move on the river.

If you tried to stay unpredictable by making the worst possible play on every street, then you definitely succeded [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

If she's playing every hand preflop at the moment call the river. If she is only playing 40% of the hands fold the river. Either way say nice hand and ask for a date.

btw I even fold 44 in that spot sometimes preflop and I am the LAGGEST LAG on here

x
[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

ps has the 2/4 been goin every night?

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

[ QUOTE ]
If she's playing every hand preflop at the moment call the river. If she is only playing 40% of the hands fold the river. Either way say nice hand and ask for a date.

btw I even fold 44 in that spot sometimes preflop and I am the LAGGEST LAG on here

x
[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

ps has the 2/4 been goin every night?

[/ QUOTE ]


whoa wtf i cant believe you post on this forum

Re: 200/400 bellagio vs liz lieu
 

Hi Baronzeus

I dont really, there is no respect here. I will put stuff up in boredome to get flamed. However my style is closer to DERB than anything so I stay low key.

x

results
 

I agree my pf raise was bad. I don't remember any reason I did it so it was probably a little tilty I guess...woops. It's not THAT bad esp considering how much respect EP raises get in that game...but it's almost surely -EV in a vacuum.

I like my river line a lot still, even though she raised A5s and got paid off. Eh.

And she's not hot. Great body but the rest leaves a lot to be desired IMO.

Re: results
 

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I agree my pf raise was bad... It's not THAT bad esp considering how much respect EP raises get in that game...but it's almost surely -EV in a vacuum.

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Yeah, lots of respect. She reraised you with A5s preflop to isolate you. Then, she raised you with bottom pair on the end, for value.

Sometimes it's best to just sit back and wait until you get a hand so you can get paid off by people like this. I prefer to have buttons and/or big cards to play hold em.

Re: results
 

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And she's not hot.

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I dunno, raising the river for value with bottom pair and getting paid off is pretty hot in my book.