What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Situation: I used to host home games, but stopped in September. One of my players bought up some of my supplies and hosted it in the town over today. Just a small group of 6 of us were invited for his first event, but he'll expand it to others in the future.

$50 buy-in and start with 3,000 in chips. I have taken an early chip lead and I'm running over the table. I'm making great reads on my opponents, taking pots away from them, making them think I'm bluffing when I've got the nuts and vice versa.

Early on a player raises on the button with pocket 10's. I'm in the small blind and push with pocket Aces. Unfortunately had I known the BB had pocket Queens, I would've played differently and tried to get them both to come along for the ride. But my push was meant to make them believe I had a hand I didn't want to see a flop with, and the 10's called and I eliminated him.

Anyway, on to the hand in question. 2+2er in my experience is a TAG player who is difficult to get reads on and plays well. I used to be TAG, but have recently switched to LAG and play a lot more tricky and my reads have become quite strong post-flop.

We are now 5-handed and I raise in EP with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Antes are 50 and blinds are 150/300. It's the 2+2ers big blind and he's short-stacked. Folded to him, and he pushes all-in for an additional 850 chips. Here's how it all adds up:

Antes=250
Blinds=450
My Raise=900
His Push: 1,750

TOTAL POT: 3,350

I have to call 850 chips to win 3,350, almost 4 to 1 on my money! I make the obvious call and he flips over 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I guess he was getting desperate, maybe he was thinking that his cards were clean and he could 60/40 against me? He's usually good with the math, so he must've known I couldn't fold getting those odds, and he should've known that his hand would need to catch to beat me.

Whatever the case, the flop was 7/8/9 and he lucked out and his hand held up and he went on to finish 2nd. I'm still beffudled by his play. I'm not sure if he was just hoping to get lucky, or forgot to calculate the odds, but it was certainly a strange play from someone who I used to believe was a stronger player than myself (my game has improved significantly recently, and I believe I've come at least close to being as strong a player as he is, perhaps even surpassing him a bit)

So, what does everyone else think? He can fold and still be short-stacked, but wait for a better spot where maybe he can steal with a push or get heads-up with a better holding. Maybe he figured he could get heads-up with clean outs (not knowing he was dominated by my hand)?

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Well with the ante, he's getting over 3 to 1 on his money since you only mini-raised and you say you are loose. So against your range of hands, he may have figured he was getting good odds on just calling... But figuring he was pot committed by calling, he just went all-in hoping he had some folding equity if you raised with a junk hand. In the heat of the moment, it's possible.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

You should have boxed his ears, sir.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well with the ante, he's getting over 3 to 1 on his money since you only mini-raised and you say you are loose. So against your range of hands, he may have figured he was getting good odds on just calling... But figuring he was pot committed by calling, he just went all-in hoping he had some folding equity if you raised with a junk hand. In the heat of the moment, it's possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh????? I didn't "mini raise" Blinds are 150/300 and I made it 900 to go, 3x the BB. There's ZERO fold equity going for him if he pushes, since I'm getting almost 4 to 1 on my money and I could call that with pocket 10's against pocket Aces (if I knew he had Aces) because the price is right.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Probably figured he had two live cards and when u get short stacked sometimes the suited connector start looking good

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Antes=250
Blinds=450
My Raise=900
His Push: 1,750

[/ QUOTE ]

Woops, I thought you meant his blind was 450, I missed the other part stating his blind was 300...

Yeah like the other poster said, I still think he must have been desperate and he already had 300 and still had to post 150 in the next hand. Either he's not that good and he thought his hand was a gem, or he has a read on you and against your range of hands he is getting enough odds to gamble.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Hmmm.........I think he was just getting desperate. Plus, he didn't announce how much more it was, perhaps he was hoping I'd hear "all-in" and maybe fold before I calculated the pot odds for the call. Ah well, he tried to give me his chips, which would've put me in great shape to continue running over the table and win the whole thing.

Variance is such a *censored* I've been playing such awesome poker lately, and I still get bad beats laid on me (luckily because I'm playing better than my opponents).

Another home game two days previous and a terrible player min-raises UTG, folded to me in the BB with K/5 offsuit and I make the call. I check blind and the flop is 5/6/10 and he bets out 200 chips. I study him and I know he's full of crap and doesn't have a pair or draw, so I come over the top all-in for another 925 chips. He calls me with A/8 sooted (rainbow flop by the way) and the turn is a 7 and the river a 9 and he runner-runners his gutshot to bust me. Ugh. That's poker.

While my results haven't been so great lately, my reads and play have been pretty damn impressive. I've gotta try to keep the ego in check, lest I become another Helmuth.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
You should have boxed his ears, sir.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha.

OP: he thought he was getting into a 60/40 and knew you had to call. That'd be my justification had I been the one to make this play.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

His play is wrong though - BECUASE you're
a) A LAG with a wide range
b) Going to call pot odds in that situation

His play would be 'correct' (read: a short stack gamble) if you were a tighter player that would be raising AJ or so instead of hands that could have him dominated.

Even IF I'm looking to gamble: I fold these hands all the time to looser players on short stack and go all-in all the time against tighter players.

Pretty standard to me.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
You should have boxed his ears, sir.

[/ QUOTE ]
OP doesn't have the required coordination to execute such a devastating strike, nor would the other guy hold still long enough for him to get it right.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

You know, you keep running your mouth about how your reads are so good and you've been playing so well lately, blah, blah, blah. I'm making the drive to Mass. and I'll sit down at you're little table. We'll see how good you are.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know, you keep running your mouth about how your reads are so good and you've been playing so well lately, blah, blah, blah. I'm making the drive to Mass. and I'll sit down at you're little table. We'll see how good you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a car that doubles as a boat? What will those crazy Russians think of next. Also, I'm part Latvian or Lithuanian, I think I'm your twin brother Julias......

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm part Latvian or Lithuanian, I think I'm your twin brother Julias......

[/ QUOTE ]
Since you're not very intelligent, I'll inform you that Latvians and Lithuanians are not Slavs, therefore, thank God, there's no possible way you could be related to me. Besides, my people originate from the southern part of Russia, far away from the Baltic countries. However, if you are of Baltic persuasion, that would clarify why you're not capable of anything that requires one to be intelligent.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

" I used to be TAG, but have recently switched to LAG and play a lot more tricky and my reads have become quite strong post-flop.

We are now 5-handed and I raise in EP with K 9

Antes are 50 and blinds are 150/300. It's the 2+2ers big blind and he's short-stacked. Folded to him, and he pushes all-in for an additional 850 chips."

Given your play, he might think his hand is better against you than it was. You're the one playing looser than you used to, so I might take a shot at you with that hand.

"and he should've known that his hand would need to catch to beat me" How loosely have you been playing? Maybe he DIDN'T know that. You don't say how big your stack is, and you've been "running over the table" so you can't have Aces every time.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

What I was thinking is that this was a bad beat story.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've gotta try to keep the ego in check, lest I become another Helmuth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck with that. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given your play, he might think his hand is better against you than it was. You're the one playing looser than you used to, so I might take a shot at you with that hand.

"and he should've known that his hand would need to catch to beat me" How loosely have you been playing? Maybe he DIDN'T know that. You don't say how big your stack is, and you've been "running over the table" so you can't have Aces every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hadn't been raising every hand or playing every hand. And I had shown down a lot of strong hands (A/A, A/J, other pocket pairs, etc)

When I say I was running over the table, I had them all figuring me out wrong. When they thought I was bluffing, I had a hand. When they thought I had a hand, I was bluffing, etc.

Post-flop I was picking off their bluffs and coming over the top of them and getting them to fold, and showing them my bottom pair. I was letting them know that I had strong reads and that their bluffs would be picked off against me.

We were only 6-handed, so you have to be a bit more aggressive anyway. But there's no way I'm folding any hand to him getting 4 to 1 odds to call and eliminate him on such a large pot. I think he just made a mistake when he was desperate, hoped his two cards were live and figured he could get lucky (which he did) and get back into the game.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I'm part Latvian or Lithuanian, I think I'm your twin brother Julias......

[/ QUOTE ]
Since you're not very intelligent, I'll inform you that Latvians and Lithuanians are not Slavs, therefore, thank God, there's no possible way you could be related to me. Besides, my people originate from the southern part of Russia, far away from the Baltic countries. However, if you are of Baltic persuasion, that would clarify why you're not capable of anything that requires one to be intelligent.

[/ QUOTE ]

A picture of myself and my good friend RussianBear everyone:

http://box99.sitemynet.com/resimbig/twins.jpg

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
What I was thinking is that this was a bad beat story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, his hand didn't knock me out of the tournament. And I was happy to see that I had him dominated, he was practically giving me his chips that hand.

I was just wondering if there are other 2+2er's who would make the play he did, and what their reasoning would be. I still believe he was just desperate and didn't bother to calculate the pot odds he was giving me. But perhaps there's something I missed that another 2+2er would reveal why they would make that play.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Normally I don't mind your posts gnu, but this is just a combination of a brag (I dominate every table I sit at!) and bad beat (I play so well but always get bad beats!) post. There is a new forum for that.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

He probably knew he had to double up soon to have any chance of winning and his hand could at least draw well if he got called.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

BOO YA

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

You're right, you're the best, we should all bow down to your greatness. We should all read your book and help you polish your WSOP bracelets. Ass.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Normally I don't mind your posts gnu, but this is just a combination of a brag (I dominate every table I sit at!) and bad beat (I play so well but always get bad beats!) post. There is a new forum for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever met a poker player who doesn't brag? Well, ok, you might have, but most do.

Again, I'm not concerned about the bad beat, I'm happy he made the play, he was practically giving me his chips that hand had I not gotten unlucky. I'd love him to do that everytime.

I was just confused because it's not like him, I respect his play and for a long time considered him a much stronger player than myself. And I don't believe I'm the greatest player ever. But I've just recently moved up a notch (in my mind at least) in my level of play. It was like an epiphany, and it feels so good to be playing this well.

I know that poker is a lifelong game, and that I will continue to learn and grow as I play, but I'm proud of this new level I have reached.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
He probably knew he had to double up soon to have any chance of winning and his hand could at least draw well if he got called.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, I figure he was just hoping to get lucky and was desperate, because I don't think he calculated the math there, or he would've known I couldn't fold.

I still believe he's a strong player, is difficult if not impossible to pickup tells from, etc. Although he does have a strong penchant for tilting, he gets quite emotional (and I've been guilty of the same myself in the past).

Then again, my Q/Q busting his short-stacked A/A in the 2+2 event I held at my house might help to contribute to that. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, you're the best, we should all bow down to your greatness. We should all read your book and help you polish your WSOP bracelets. Ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.trnty.edu/gsm/troll_680x870.jpg

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Well, to answer your question, what was the 2+2er thinking, probably what everyone else here thinks about you, you're an ass.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Self-portrait?

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Don't you have a line to stand in for bread, or something better to do?

http://www.reinhartgenealogy.com/Wor...ead%20Line.jpg

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Can you come up with anything better than worn-out, old, ethnic insults? Really, come up with something original. Or better yet, invest your time in something constructive, donkey.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

I believe there's another forum for bragging about sucking out.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Probably figured he had two live cards and when u get short stacked sometimes the suited connector start looking good

[/ QUOTE ]

there's no real mystery about his play, bud...this is a thinly-veiled bad beat post. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Probably figured he had two live cards and when u get short stacked sometimes the suited connector start looking good

[/ QUOTE ]

there's no real mystery about his play, bud...this is a thinly-veiled bad beat post. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Incorrect my friend, this was a mathematical post and you all failed miserably..........

Here's what was posted:

Antes are 50 and blinds are 150/300. It's the 2+2ers big blind and he's short-stacked. Folded to him, and he pushes all-in for an additional 850 chips. Here's how it all adds up:

Antes=250
Blinds=450
My Raise=900
His Push: 1,750

TOTAL POT: 3,350

I have to call 850 chips to win 3,350, almost 4 to 1 on my money

If you all had done the math, you would see the his push wasn't for 1750, since he actually only had 1450 with which to push (850 over the additional 600 I raised him with). So really, the pot was 3,050, not 3350. I'm disappointed in all of you (or I just wrote this all wrong from the beginning, either way, great odds and I have to call anyway)

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Here's what he's thinking, I can't just call because I can't afford to fold after the flop.

I'll have 1400 after this hand if I fold. I'll have 1200 after the small blind. I'll blow off 150 more chips on antes in the three hands before I hit the blinds again. I have some fold equity here even if its very small because of the pot odds. 8-9 suited is at least as good as anything I'm likely to pick up in the next four hands and there's a decent chance I'm 40 percent or better to win this hand. I have to push.

I wouldn't criticize him if he'd pushed with 7-2 off here, and 7-2 suited would be a standard push.


--Zetack

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]


Here's what he's thinking, I can't just call because I can't afford to fold after the flop.

I'll have 1400 after this hand if I fold. I'll have 1200 after the small blind. I'll blow off 150 more chips on antes in the three hands before I hit the blinds again. I have some fold equity here even if its very small because of the pot odds. 8-9 suited is at least as good as anything I'm likely to pick up in the next four hands and there's a decent chance I'm 40 percent or better to win this hand. I have to push.

I wouldn't criticize him if he'd pushed with 7-2 off here, and 7-2 suited would be a standard push.


--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the reasoning for the 8/9 suited desperation move. I don't think there's any fold equity here, I can't lay down getting over 3 to 1 on my call, as one of the larger stacks (and being able to eliminate the toughest competition at the table is enticing as well, get him out and my path to 1st place becomes that much easier, he's definetely the strongest player in the group)

I don't agree with your 7/2 comment though, I think that would definetly hit the muck. But yeah, if he puts me on a hand like A/J offsuit or K/Q suited or whatever, then he's in the 60/40 range and can at least get it heads-up against one other hand. I don't think he could put me on K/9 of diamonds there, if he knew I had him dominated he'd fold. He likely thought he had live cards and made his stand.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know, you keep running your mouth about how your reads are so good and you've been playing so well lately, blah, blah, blah. I'm making the drive to Mass. and I'll sit down at you're little table. We'll see how good you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me know when you're coming down. I'd like to be there.

Not sure what Grandgnu did to you to get your panties in such a bunch. Whatever it may be, I'm pretty sure it's undeserved. Had you met him in real life I'd think you're feeling would be different. Or at least that you wouldn't use the guise of the internet to start a fight. In any case, repeatedly spewing insults in this thread is pretty pathetic and in my opinion casts you in a far worse light then your insults do to him.

As to the hand in question. I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about based on your description. I don't think it was a rational move. I don't think he calculated if there was any fold equity. I think he was getting desperate. Probably slightly on tilt. I'm sure he thought his cards were live and it was simply a matter of him thinking he wasn't that much of a dog against your likely range. Something to the effect of "I'm going home soon anyways, might as well try to suck out on AJ".

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Here's what he's thinking, I can't just call because I can't afford to fold after the flop.

I'll have 1400 after this hand if I fold. I'll have 1200 after the small blind. I'll blow off 150 more chips on antes in the three hands before I hit the blinds again. I have some fold equity here even if its very small because of the pot odds. 8-9 suited is at least as good as anything I'm likely to pick up in the next four hands and there's a decent chance I'm 40 percent or better to win this hand. I have to push.

I wouldn't criticize him if he'd pushed with 7-2 off here, and 7-2 suited would be a standard push.


--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the reasoning for the 8/9 suited desperation move. I don't think there's any fold equity here, I can't lay down getting over 3 to 1 on my call, as one of the larger stacks (and being able to eliminate the toughest competition at the table is enticing as well, get him out and my path to 1st place becomes that much easier, he's definetely the strongest player in the group)

I don't agree with your 7/2 comment though, I think that would definetly hit the muck. But yeah, if he puts me on a hand like A/J offsuit or K/Q suited or whatever, then he's in the 60/40 range and can at least get it heads-up against one other hand. I don't think he could put me on K/9 of diamonds there, if he knew I had him dominated he'd fold. He likely thought he had live cards and made his stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't agree with my 7-2 off comment? Fair enough. I'm not good at doing the averaging over ranges of hands, so I can't do the math accurately against the entire range of hands that you'd go 3 BB's with, but against two overs 7-2 off is about 30 percent to win. That's 2.33-1. The pot is laying him 2.75-1 to call. But he can't just call because he can't fold later. So he pushes. Alternatively, he could call and then push on any flop hoping you wiff entirely and don't want to waste another 850 chips, but I think he rightly figures that if you'll call an all in PF you'll call it on the flop regardless.

With 7-2 suited against two overs that don't duplicate his suit, he's just barely better than 2-1 to win, again getting 2.75-1 on his call, and again he can't just call because he can't fold.

The possibility of your range including having a pair better than seven, obvsiously makes his odds a somewhat worse.

*shrug* But play it however you want.

--Zetack

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

MrMoo, good ol' Russian Bear and I had an arguement over martial arts. It was in regards to ear strikes, and I stated that appropriately administered, a strike around the ear/jaw line could mess up an opponent and disorient him.

He began to argue with me, stating that "boxing the ears" was ineffective and insulting me. So I started dropping Yakov Schmirnoff jokes, posting pictures of Chuck Norris and other such fun things. It was really a good time, although it happened a little bit ago. Why he's following me around like a Troll now I don't know, but I enjoy finding random pictures to post, so I encourage him to continue on.

Zeetack, yes, I understand that the odds of the 7/2 offsuit are about 30% against my range. But I don't think he'd make that play there. At least with the 8/9 suited he's got about a 40/60 showdown. The ability to catch the straight or flush greatly improves his chances against my range as well.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

Following you around like a troll? Keep telling yourself whatever you need to to satisfy your ego. Funny you don't take me up on my offer to prove yourself at the table, though. Perhaps you're not really as good as you think you are.

Re: What Was This Fellow 2+2er thinking??????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Following you around like a troll? Keep telling yourself whatever you need to to satisfy your ego. Funny you don't take me up on my offer to prove yourself at the table, though. Perhaps you're not really as good as you think you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you didn't follow me into this thread? Also, when are you coming over on the boat, since you're so eager to play against me?