Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

$2/$4NL...6 max
All 3 of these hands I get check raised on the flop and then the guy checks the turn. I hardly ever see that and to see it 3 times in 5 mins really was weird and I was like a deer in headlights.

#1) I raise to $16 with TT. BB calls.
Pot $34. Flop 752. He checks, I bet $24 and he check raises to $48. I call.

Pot $130. Turn 9. He checks and I check
Pot $130. River Q. He bets $80 and I fold.

#2) Same villain a few hands later. He limps UTG. I raise to $16 with JJ and he calls.

Pot $38. Flop T66. He checks, I bet $30 and he check raises to $60. I call.

Pot $158. Turn 4. He checks...hmmm..same exact line. I bet $80 and he calls.

Pot $318. River 8. He bets $140. I call...Thoughts?


#3) This happened at the same time..different table and different villain.

I raise to $16 UTG with KK. BB calls.
Pot $34. Flop 862. He checks and I bet $30. He check raises to $72. I call.

Pot $176. Turn 9. He checks and I check
Pot $176. River T. He bets $40 and I raise to $120. Thoughts?

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

Most of the time I interpret flop check-raise/turn check as weakness.

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

Throw out 2/3 pot bets on all these turns.

Raising the river in #3 is bad.

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

hand 3 is strange why do u check the turn?waiting 4 an ace to drop?push the turn and pick up the pot!!!!

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

1) I usually would bet this turn; check is ok. Call the river (even assuming you'd never seen this guy do this line before)

2) Check the turn; possibly raise his river bet (now you know he uses this line a lot- you want added value from his bluffs; along w/ minimizing losses v trip 6s- even if it costs you value vs. AT)

3) played fine until the river. River is call > fold > big raise > ur raise. I think calling is better. You may push out AA- possibly; or you may get a call from QQ w/ your raise. I don't see any reason for doing this if you give him any somewhat logical hand range. If I'm raising this river its at least potsized.

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

As you can see the hands are very similar.

#1) This is the 1st time Ive seen this line in a million years. I didnt know what the turn check meant so I checked behind. I didnt feel like I could call the river so I folded

#2) Exact same line from same guy. By now I was suspicious so I bet the turn. When he led the river, I was stuck again. I probbaly shouldve folded. He had quad 6's

#3) This hand is like 3 mins later and Im still freaked out about the 1st 2 hands so I decided to keep the pot small and check behind on the turn.

I raised the river because his bet looked like a blocking bet to me. Not a good idea since I have no idea what he has. He had TT

Obviously I screwed these up about as badly as could be done, but I still dont know if its best to bet these turns or not. One guy was trapping in at least 1 hand if not both. The other guy played it like a moron in my opinion but made me freeze up and then 2 outted me.

This has been a horrific 13 buy in losing streak where every possible bad scenario has come up.

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

Flop check-raise followed by a turn check is weakness the majority of the time. It's "Did you miss? - No, huh, since you just called... damn, okay, well, I hope you at least check it down from here and my 77 hold up." I bet the turn virtually every time, even if I called the flop with air intending to do precisely that.

Kirk

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop check-raise followed by a turn check is weakness the majority of the time. It's "Did you miss? - No, huh, since you just called... damn, okay, well, I hope you at least check it down from here and my 77 hold up." I bet the turn virtually every time, even if I called the flop with air intending to do precisely that.

Kirk

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats kind of what I thought until I saw the guy do it with quads.

So you would bet the turn and if he called, you would check behind on the river most times?

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

"This has been a horrific 13 buy in losing streak where every possible bad scenario has come up."

A 13 buy-in losing streak is something I would be very worried about. It seems more like bad play than the downside of variance.

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

I think hand #3 can be interpreted 1 of 4 main ways (of course, it's possible he is just making a VERY strange play with little logic to it but...):

1. He is putting a play on you (misread) or making a semi-bluff on the flop (hence the larger than min raise that has a better chance of possibly winning the hand right then), you call and he says "oh crap.. that didn't work" and slows down. You check though so he feels he needs to at least take a shot at the pot on 5th and hangs his head when you raise.

2. The hand starts off in a similar way, but now he actually gets lucky and improves his hand on 4th (say he has 98 or 99). Now he switches modes of operation and decides to slow play. You check behind him on 4th, so he thinks that maybe you are weak and tries to just value bet on 5th and is pleased when you raise him.

3. Similar to the other scenarios, but this time after the flop he improves but picks up a straight draw (or had the draw but now pairs), gets a free card, hits it on 5th but feels you are weak now so he doesn't bet that much. He's glad you raised.

4. He knows how you play and thinks you might have AK/AQ here and might have missed and knows you will bet strong often here anyway if checked to. He holds something like TT/JJ and says "oh crap" when you call his raise because he doesn't believe you would do that with just AK/AQ and now he turns soft. 5th is then just a blocking bet if he has JJ since if you have AA/KK/QQ/TT he's behind, and he's unhappy when you raise. It's a small value bet when he thinks you are weak if he had TT and he's glad to see the raise.

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

[ QUOTE ]
3) played fine until the river. River is call > fold > big raise > ur raise. I think calling is better.

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I second the call on the river there. I don't think he is making a blocking bet a large enough % of the time to justify raising, and that raise has basically 0 fold equity against any hand that can have you beat.

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

[ QUOTE ]
"This has been a horrific 13 buy in losing streak where every possible bad scenario has come up."

A 13 buy-in losing streak is something I would be very worried about. It seems more like bad play than the downside of variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said I wasnt worried? Ive posted more in the past week than I have for a long time and theres a reason for that. Ive been playing for 4 years. Ive had one 10 buy in losing streak and have never had another one worse than 4 (although I probably lose 4 about once a month).

During this streak, I would say that Ive lost
3 buy ins with bluffs that didnt work
2 buy ins tilted away
4 due to bad beats
and 4 due to tough situations / bad plays / impossible hands to get away from, like flush over flush or set over set

The frustration level is at an all time high, believe me.

By the way, he had TT in hand #3 and 2 outted me on the river. He mightve folded if I bet the turn, but I doubt it.

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

[ QUOTE ]
The other guy played it like a moron in my opinion but made me freeze up and then 2 outted me.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's always likely that someone is a moron (heh), but he might not be as big a moron as you think and there may have at least been some reasoning behind what he was doing.

On the flop he may put you on a range of hands that include AK/AQ/AJ and AA - JJ as major possibilities (this isnt' the entire range, but he might be thinking that these hands together make up much more than 50% of your holdings). He thinks that if he bets and you have AK/AQ/AJ, you will just fold, but he thinks that you are aggressive enough heads up on the flop that you will bet at least 1/2 the pot or more when checked to. So maybe his "Plan A" was to check-raise and take your aggressive bet and be done with it.

Then when you called, his read may have been "oh crap... he has me beat almost all the time with that call", so he slows down and checks, hoping that you make a mistake with AA - JJ and let him see 5th for cheap with his big implied odds. It's important to note that he did NOT 2-out you on 5th, since he picked up a gutshot draw on the turn. 6 cards could have beat you, and if he puts you on an overpair that has him beat, you may just push him out if he bets into you, but maybe if he acts weak he can get to 5th if he beleives those implied odds are there.

Now you check behind him and while he's very happy to see the T, he goes "Huh? Maybe I misread him and didn't have big implied odds afterall? Maybe he was weak and did have the AK/AQ but refused to lay it down on the flop", so he makes a small bet.

Re: Strange line and it happens 3 times
 

I think you're reading too much into an isolated incident(-s) with the quads. Yes, I'll bet the turn majority of the time, but what I do on the river is completely opponent dependent, though a check behind would be my standard play. Or just shove all in with one pair if it's the right opponent.

I remember playing 50NL (as in .25-.50, just to clarify) a few months ago and all of a sudden, it's like my opponents got replaced by pros - they were pushing with draws, check-raising the turn big with air forcing me to make some tough laydowns (hey, I don't care if it's a $20 pot - it's MY pot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ), and making all sorts of other moves unheard of for that game. But in the end it was just that - an aberration, an anomaly on an otherwise flat curve of standard 50NL play.
Done rambling.

Kirk