Size Does Matter
 

Afternoon 50 rebuy on Stars. Loose fishy player limps UTG+2 with blinds at 100/200. I make it 800 with AcJc, SB calls and limper calls. Going to the flop SB has 14737, limper has 10288 and I have 13630. Flop is 5dJh4d. SB leads for 1400 into the 2600 pot. Limper folds...now what? SB seems like a solid competent player, but I don't really know anything about him and havent seen him show down a hand.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

SB has a pocket pair, 88 or 99 and throws out this testing bet to see if you just raised with 2 high cards. If you raise here, I think he folds. But if he calls, it means he doesn't believe you and I would continue to bet the turn.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

A lot of times you take very specific reads. I agree that 88/99 type hands are a possibility, but its only 1 of a number of possibilities.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

If I have KJ or JQ I would lead out as well from the SB. Not sure if he would have gotten to the flop though. He could also have a number of draws. I raise the flop.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

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A lot of times you take very specific reads. I agree that 88/99 type hands are a possibility, but its only 1 of a number of possibilities.

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I get too confused if I put my opps on too big a range of hands. Not being funny here. So I usually make my best guess and go with it. Big flaw? Probably.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

seems like an odd way to play a draw w/ the aggressive preflop raiser behind you.
This isn't quite WAWB since there are two overcards that would slow things down, but he could have something like QdJd or KdJd or any pair from 44-TT or even a slowplayed overpair. You are drawing nearly dead against the sets and thin against the overpairs. I think that this is a great way to play a made hand if I was him, but it's still pretty likely that he can have a middle pair.

I think you need to find out if your hand is any good right now. Make a raise to 4k and fold if he jams. If he calls check behind the turn and call a reasonable river bet.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

So the SB still has 12,537 behind after the flop bet, you have 12,830.

Seems like pretty deep stacks here still, so we definitely have some room to manuever.

We are raising here, but the question is how much. SB could be leading with 6-6 or 10-10, thinking it's still good possibly. He could be leading with a weaker Jack or a flush draw, or he could be taking more of a unique line and leading out with his set. But I think you are ahead here, and raising makes sense to tell us where we are at.

I raise to 3600. I believe this allows you some room to evaluate if he comes over the top, but it still tells the SB that you have a hand.

Brad

Re: Size Does Matter
 

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I think you need to find out if your hand is any good right now. Make a raise to 4k and fold if he jams. If he calls check behind the turn and call a reasonable river bet.




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I will bet/3bet with good draws here a lot.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

[ QUOTE ]
Afternoon 50 rebuy on Stars. Loose fishy player limps UTG+2 with blinds at 100/200. I make it 800 with AcJc, SB calls and limper calls. Going to the flop SB has 14737, limper has 10288 and I have 13630. Flop is 5dJh4d. SB leads for 1400 into the 2600 pot. Limper folds...now what? SB seems like a solid competent player, but I don't really know anything about him and havent seen him show down a hand.

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Is this not an easy raise? I would figure SBs range something like Axd or maybe even KQd. He could also have Jx, but I doubt J5 or J4. He also could have flopped a set and felt with 2 diamonds on the board he had to bet it, but I still think if it's a set he would CR a lot here.

If the limper calls I think this hand gets a lot more interesting, but as is I would pop it to ~4000 (maybe a little less, but not much) and see how he reacts. I'm then pushing any non-diamond on the turn if it's checked to me, and I would have to re-evaluate if he came back and pushed on the flop. I think you're fav over his range here, and I think giving him a cheap look at the turn would be a mistake. I don't think I can put any considering into folding this flop without some sort of read.

-Rizen

Re: Size Does Matter
 

For what it's worth I call a push if he comes over the top of you on the flop. Too many times he'll think he's defending the best hand when he has K-J. I'd expect him to have that or the flush draw over more times than a set.

I don't mind getting my money in the middle on that flop in this situation. Especially with the fact that the SB led on the flop. I still don't find too many players leading with their sets online.

Brad

Re: Size Does Matter
 

i like a raise to 4200 and call a push. jam a non-diamond turn. 44/55 are possible, (and strangely played QQ+) but i think there are too many other hands that can jam the flop, including hands you crush like Jx.

what's your position, btw?

Re: Size Does Matter
 

I was in the CO. Oh, and also and this may or may not be important an orbit before I had raised 3 limpers from the button. I had AA, but they all folded so they didnt know that.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

Does the sb have a baby picture? Oh right, he seems solid. Well then probably not a good idea to shove.

I tend to call here at least some of the time and I'm having trouble explaining why so maybe I'm wrong. I'd also be inclined to call with 1010 and sometimes ak, not sure if that's relevent. If he leads the turn I'm raising anything I don't want to show down and calling anything I do. (I know, backwards poker right [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img])

Basically I read the villain as having a hand he will fold to a raise (99, qj) or a set if he's clever. I don't think draws tend to bet out multiway. A passive line seems like the best way to get value and you don't have to worry about getting outdrawn. If he's smart enough to bet all three streets with a set then you're screwed. If he has a jack he'll either keep betting and put the money in for you or switch to check/calling and you can go 2/3-3/4 pot and really punish him. If he makes a blockish bet I'd minraise or some other small raise.

Great hand by the way, I think this sort of situation is one of the most important things to discuss.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

My original thinking was that he could have two overs and a flush draw (6d7d was the first hand to come to mind) and trying to get you to come over the top, and your last point about you raising last orbit confirms that a thinking SB could make this preflop call.

If you had been playing aggressively previous to these hands in question, this is the exact move I would make here in his position with this hand, hoping for a raise from the aggressive player with an all-in move after your raise.

That being said, I would make a raise to about 3500 with your cards.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

I'm raising it to 4K.
I put him on JT, KJ or maybe a medium pair.
I am afraid of 54..but what can you do.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

If you really think he has a big draw wouldn't it be more profitable to wait and raise the turn when you are ahead?

Re: Size Does Matter
 

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I put him on JT, KJ or maybe a medium pair.

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So the hero is winning and the villain is drawing to five or fewer outs. Shouldn't we try to avoid scaring him off?

Re: Size Does Matter
 

i'm not letting him draw to his card for free. i don't have a made hand.
if you call that doesn't mean he'll put anything else into the pot, unless he hits.
plus there will already be a lot in the pot, 5,400 which would be an addition of around 40% to your stack, which is quite a lot.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

I raise it to 3800. Hate this, but I want to find out where i'm at now. Smells like QQ, but could be KdJd. Fold to a push/reraise.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

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I think you need to find out if your hand is any good right now. Make a raise to 4k and fold if he jams. If he calls check behind the turn and call a reasonable river bet.




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I will bet/3bet with good draws here a lot.

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the sky is blue, so what?

Re: Size Does Matter
 

I am not convinced that he does have the big draw with 6d7d, but I hadn't seen it mentioned yet as a possibility. It is very unlikely that the "solid, competent player" in the SB called with 67o.

Of course, if you were "sure" that he had the big draw, then calling would be acceptable and acting according to the turn. But there are a lot of hands here that would make the same move here, and you would be way ahead of.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

I figure his range is QQ-44, Ac8c+, 67cc-jtcc, jts, qj, kj. I think its best to call the flop and raise/bet a non diamond turn. If I raise the flop then I'm going to have a tough time calling a push, but just as hard of a time folding.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

I call and evaluate turn.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

I knew you would you crazy cash player you.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

Serious question jason. what hands do you raise on this flop?

Re: Size Does Matter
 

Just out of curiousity, why in the world does this smell like QQ?

If it is, then congratulations to the SB because he sure fooled me.

I think you rarely see QQ from the small blind in this situation.

Brad

Re: Size Does Matter
 

Let's see...one, maybe two draws (but probably one), the board is not scary at all and that's a probe bet if I've ever seen one.

If you raise, you might stack a jack or get away from the hand when a monster does something dumb like min-3 bet (this doesn't happen too often, though.) But you'll often fold an 88 type hand that you want in.

If you call, a K or Q makes it fairly hard to play the hand because they're in the 'decent flush draw' range. It also usually makes it more difficult to stack a 'good' jack, but you'll get the most out of 88 and JT. You might also blow a draw off on the turn, which is a plus.

I'm 50/50 on what to do here and sometimes do either, but given your likely image at this point I like a raise more.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

i think raising lets him get off his bluffs/bad hands, and then ets him jam when he has you beat. This is how you've knocked me out of the last two tournaments i was in with you. Leading out w/ some two pair/set.

I think i like calling here, maybe raising the turn, but i dunno if stack sizes will be big enough to do that w/o pushing.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

I think your hand needs to be played very cautiously, due to the fact that SB is a solid player. He called a big raise in terrible position and then led into you on a draw heavy board. At this point, I could very easily see him holding QQ in this position, not wanting to shove pre-flop with such a deep stack, or a flopped set. He knows you are an aggresive player and if he is a thinking player he would lead into the aggresive player everytime with a strong holding in this position hoping to be raised.

I think just calling on the flop accomplishes a couple good things for you in the hand. It gives us an oppurtunity to see the turn (he cant jam to a raise). It will slow down any PP lower than jacks. If the third diamond does fall and he has a set it will slow him down as well providing us with a cheaper showdown. And finally, we have position to re-evaluate the situation after the turn.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

I played a hand extremely similiar to this one in a NL 2000 tournament during the WSOP..Juanda limped UTG, I raised kind of earlyish, Hoyt Coykins called with QQ in the SB and led a J high flop. Only difference was the flop was all spades...and I had JJ no AJ

Re: Size Does Matter
 

Most likey hands on the flop: flush draw, str8 draw, J9 - JK, middle-pocket pair.

Less likely: AA-KK, set.

I think we are ahead, but he most likely has a large number of outs, I am raising now to get a better feel for the hand.

I pop him for 4K or so. I think it is best to see where we stand early in this hand. I would like to have the option to fold on a later street (or if he jams now), but would have a hard time doing it, if I didnt show some serious strength in the hand.

If he calls and the turn is <J non-diamond I will be jamming . I cant see an over-pair or set chancing a free diamond draw. The pot will be 100% of our stack, and I will have to call off another 5K if I check behind and he hits the river and bets.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

haven't read the replies yet, but i'll take a crack.

(also, i want to say that i hope someone in this thread called this a WAWB situation. because i like a good chuckle =)

i call here. i imagine you have an aggressive image. this means that, if the SB is an observant/solid player, he will be very willing to 3bet you with a lot of cards here, which include sets, but also include 67, two big diamonds, a paired fourflush, 88, JT... essentially, a lot of hands you way ahead of, a lot of hands you are way behind, and also a few hands with strong-ish draws.

essentially, the problem that i'm having is that I can't fold TPTK on this board to a 3bet push from an SB caller.

not to mention that people hate being called OOP and will have difficulty putting you on TPTK.

my turn play will depend on a lot of things. the turn card, of course. his bet size. i will likely try to make a "timing" read (i know, ugh). i am fairly certain that if checked to on the turn, i'm betting any card that falls. i'm folding a CR (which will likely be a push) on a scare card and calling a non scare card (scare cards being, at this point, diamonds).

i'll be perfectly honest -- i am unsure what to do on the turn if he bets out. no matter what card comes.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

Solid SB calls a raise of a top aggressive player and w/ loose fishy behind he fully expects to call the raise as well - unlikely to just call w/ a big pair so figure pairs JJ and lower, unlikely to play a trap hand so throw out the broadways and weak Js, suited conns certainly in range. He leads out w/ a probe into these two opponents and he's expecting to get played with. I doubt he's doing that w/ the pairs that missed - he's looking to get raised and he's planning to push. Whether he's got a made hand or the big draw is where I think the question lies - I'm expecting to see a set, 2 pair or a combo draw. Call and evaluate on the turn.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

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I call and evaluate turn.

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Re: Size Does Matter
 

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i like a raise to 4200 and call a push. jam a non-diamond turn. 44/55 are possible, (and strangely played QQ+) but i think there are too many other hands that can jam the flop, including hands you crush like Jx.

what's your position, btw?

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I've agreed with you on very many hands in a row.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

I'd push. Any raise is going to leave you pot committed and you don't really want to see the turn.

without a read, I'd assume the player is tight (because you haven't taken notice of him).

Villain's range:

He is ahead: 44,55, 45s, jj (10 ways)
You are ahead: jks,jqs, jts,TT-66 (36 ways)
he has a big draw (flush draw only leads into 2 players OOP:assume tight) AQd, akd, atd, kqd, qtd, ktd,a2d,a3d (~10 ways)

Sanity check: Villain only calls 2pr++.
villain folds 80% of the hands hero wins .8X4K=3.2K
20% of the time villain calls and hero loses ~9K(discounted for 45 vs. J) = -1.8K

Worst case villain sees your cards and only calls hands that have value (44,55,45,jj, any two diamonds)

66% of the time villain folds hero gets .66X4K = 2.6K
16% of time villain calls hero loses 9K = -1.4K
16% of the villain calls hero wins 2K =.32K

~1.5K (about the same).

If hero calls then he will probably need to show villain his stack on a safe turn anyway. There aren't alot of turns hero wants to see.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

you forgot all sorts of hands. 67 of diamonds, pair+flush draw. also, i don't know why you say A10 of diamonds might lead, but A8 won't. What's the difference?

Re: Size Does Matter
 

didn't write them down but included them in the 10 drawing hands. 67d,78d.

ATd is better than a8d. Given the PF action AT work as a str8 and beat 99,88. a8s probably folds PF.

QQ-AA doesn't want to play a hand PF 3 ways OOP online against a fish limper. It might be different for Hoyt Corkins in the WSOP.

Re: Size Does Matter
 

A8s folds preflop? but you included A2 and A3 in your range for big draws. You cant claim A2/A3 call preflop but A8 doesnt,

Re: Size Does Matter
 

A2,A3 are pretty marginal PF, but more useful as str8 (PF). Diamonds are popular anyways [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. I don't think the flush draws matter that much because both players are EV+ because of the dead money. The number of flush draws is no more than 14 anyway. (Add a9d,a8d,a7d,a6d)