200 NL
 

Villian is TAG, 15/5.

Full ring, 200NL.

One limp, Villian Limp(200), Hero AKs (~200) Raise $12, call, call.


FLOP(~35)4TK rainbow - 3 players.
check, villian bets $35, hero .......

call... other player folds

TURN($105) 6 (completes rainbow)
villian pushes ($160), hero.......
folds

Comments on flop and turn appreciated.

Re: 200 NL
 

There's not much that villain would be playing so fast here that you have beat. If he was 55/30 or something like that, I could see a call being reasonable, but no way against a 15/5 villain.
I have recently lost alot of money overplaying TPTK and overpairs as I moved up, and I have realized that in situations like these, you are beat a very large percentage of the time.

Re: 200 NL
 

That kind of TAGishness means he'd probably only limpcall with a pocket pair maybe AK, AQ, right? Been a while since I played full ring. You're probably behind a predictable player. If he is somewhat tricky, it's closer. I think it's a good fold, although you might lay down a split sometimes.

Re: 200 NL
 

You know the turn bet is coming(or a cr all in), just drop it on the flop if the guy is a set miner.

His line is really retarded though, and proof that almost all 15/5 guys play poorly postflop.

Re: 200 NL
 

but why would he play a set this fast? It seems illogical to play a good hand so fast on an uncoordinated board like this one.

Re: 200 NL
 

Very weird line for him, but calling the turn is ugly... about the only hand you're beating there is QK, which is possible but not likely enough to call the turn. Probably a good laydown. I think that unless he had QJ, he misplayed it badly.

Kirk

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
but why would he play a set this fast? It seems illogical to play a good hand so fast

[/ QUOTE ]

... you just answered your own question. He put you on AK.

Kirk

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
You know the turn bet is coming(or a cr all in), just drop it on the flop if the guy is a set miner.

His line is really retarded though, and proof that almost all 15/5 guys play poorly postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How retarded is his line if he has QQ or JJ?

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
but why would he play a set this fast? It seems illogical to play a good hand so fast on an uncoordinated board like this one.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I was villian I would had played a set this way like 80-90% of the time, im not much of a TAG though most of the time.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but why would he play a set this fast? It seems illogical to play a good hand so fast on an uncoordinated board like this one.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I was villian I would had played a set this way like 80-90% of the time, im not much of a TAG though most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that? Do you think you would get calls from AK often enough to make it worth it? If he did have a set, he certainly could have extracted more from me. If he had QJ, JJ, QQ, I suppose it was a good play but dangerous...

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he had QJ, JJ, QQ, I suppose it was a good play but dangerous...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it dangerous? That's the only way QQ or JJ wins the pot. Against some villains I probably fire a second barrel on the turn as well.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he had QJ, JJ, QQ, I suppose it was a good play but dangerous...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it dangerous? That's the only way QQ or JJ wins the pot. Against some villains I probably fire a second barrel on the turn as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that a lot of heros at the 200NL level that would not lay down AK here regardless of turn bet size - people love there TPTK. This guy only had about 50 hands or so with me, so I don't think he was solid enough to make the read that I would do so.

Also, he would be scared of AA or KK given that I hadn't raised too many hands PF in those 50.

Re: 200 NL
 

ew, looks like he flopped a set.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he had QJ, JJ, QQ, I suppose it was a good play but dangerous...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it dangerous? That's the only way QQ or JJ wins the pot. Against some villains I probably fire a second barrel on the turn as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that a lot of heros at the 200NL level that would not lay down AK here regardless of turn bet size - people love there TPTK. This guy only had about 50 hands or so with me, so I don't think he was solid enough to make the read that I would do so.

Also, he would be scared of AA or KK given that I hadn't raised too many hands PF in those 50.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero should have raised or folded the flop. If villain has QQ or JJ he will fold. As played hero told villain that he didn't have AA, KK, TT or (can't remember 3rd card) so villain continued to push. Maybe villain has a real hand(probably 75% of the time). hero showed no aggression so villain ran him over. Sometimes you have to make that raise in a situation when you get a good AK flop. There are plenty of maniacs at $200 who will push with less than a K here........

Re: 200 NL
 

without reading the rest of the thread, I like OP's line alot and that is what I would do. Unless you note him to be very donkish, it seems like an easy fold on turn and you thank god villan didnt bet 60 on turn and 100 on river to show you KT or a flopped set.

Re: 200 NL
 

Make up your mind on the flop. 15/5 doesn't really limp-call OOP with KQo.. that's a PP set mining 99% of the time, but then again, 50 hands isn't much.

Re: 200 NL
 

Are you suggesting to raise the flop to say, ~90? That basically commits my stack and always pays off the set. Anyone just fold the flop straight up?

Re: 200 NL
 

you played it fine. you may have folded a chop, but it's more likely you're beat.

sometimes you can drop it on the flop against these guys, but a lot of times i like your call and see what he does on the turn.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Make up your mind on the flop. 15/5 doesn't really limp-call OOP with KQo.. that's a PP set mining 99% of the time, but then again, 50 hands isn't much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree that you must make up your mind on the flop. The action will go, turn check/check - river check/call way too often to just give up here.

Re: 200 NL
 

raising the flop does an outstanding job of folding out worse hands, and pot commiting you against better hands. Without a better read on villain i think this line is ok.

Re: 200 NL
 

Yeh, because Mr. 15/5 thinks his middle set is no good.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting to raise the flop to say, ~90? That basically commits my stack and always pays off the set. Anyone just fold the flop straight up?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just saying that if you plan to continue past the flop you are committing your stack to see the hand all the way through. That turn 6 does nothing for either of you and you folded to his bet there. If you think he has a set then you were drawing runner-runner and should have folded to the flop bet. Either give it up on the flop or make a raise/push if you think you are ahead. If you call, then you better have a plan to get to a showdown which will most likely involve an all-in.

All of this is read dependent, what do you think villain had? You were the one watching him play for 50 hands. Make a decision and stick with it. It you are wrong, well you just paid for a hand reading lesson. What I would do is not relevant, but I would probably fold unless I thought villain was capable of betting this with an under pair or air.

Re: 200 NL
 

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 42-it.

You're getting good at this poker thing.

Re: 200 NL
 

you can't fold every time a tight player leads into you after you raise PF, and raising the flop is pretty terrible. calling the flop is the best option IMO. we have position and can see what he does on the turn.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
you can't fold every time a tight player leads into you after you raise PF, and raising the flop is pretty terrible. calling the flop is the best option IMO. we have position and can see what he does on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with what you are saying. You can't let him run you over, but if this is athe first time in 50 hands.

I take issue with the see what he does on the turn. A great majority of the time this is a huge bet or a push. So calling the flop gets you nowhere. An A or K on the turn will cost you your entire stack.

What is your plan now that hero invested another $35 in the pot on the flop? If you are folding here then you just spewed $35 on the flop.

Re: 200 NL
 

It's just TPTK.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's just TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

TPTK is pretty strong on this board.

Re: 200 NL
 

I don't have much of a problem folding it against this guy.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is your plan now that hero invested another $35 in the pot on the flop? If you are folding here then you just spewed $35 on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think it's spewed. if i call on the flop, it's with a plan to fold/call/raise if he leads again or bet/check if he checks.

we don't have enough information to make folding more attractive to me than calling. by calling and letting villain act on the turn we're getting more information that will hopefully make it possible for us to make the best decision.

also i disagree that he fires a second barrel the majority of the time, i think it's about 50/50 between him betting and checking.

btw, his turn overbet makes me think his hand is weaker rather than stronger.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is your plan now that hero invested another $35 in the pot on the flop? If you are folding here then you just spewed $35 on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think it's spewed. if i call on the flop, it's with a plan to fold/call/raise if he leads again or bet/check if he checks.

we don't have enough information to make folding more attractive to me than calling. by calling and letting villain act on the turn we're getting more information that will hopefully make it possible for us to make the best decision.

also i disagree that he fires a second barrel the majority of the time, i think it's about 50/50 between him betting and checking.

btw, his turn overbet makes me think his hand is weaker rather than stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all of this.

The only way a set plays like this is if he is a bad multi tabler who just shovels money in with a set, disregarding flop texture and relative position, and just hoping his opponents are bad enough to pay him off.

But when 15/5 guys play hands real fast, they are generally trying to push you out with a draw, or a strong but not great hand.

I'd be very tempted to look up the turn bet. If he bet a reasonable amount I'd be much more likely to drop it.

Re: 200 NL
 

I tend to just muck in these situations on the flop. If a rock comes out betting big after limp calling a raise, I assume he hit a set. I always try to isolate the weaker players not play big pots with set miners (unless of course I have middle set or better).

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is your plan now that hero invested another $35 in the pot on the flop? If you are folding here then you just spewed $35 on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think it's spewed. if i call on the flop, it's with a plan to fold/call/raise if he leads again or bet/check if he checks.

we don't have enough information to make folding more attractive to me than calling. by calling and letting villain act on the turn we're getting more information that will hopefully make it possible for us to make the best decision.

also i disagree that he fires a second barrel the majority of the time, i think it's about 50/50 between him betting and checking.

btw, his turn overbet makes me think his hand is weaker rather than stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with all of this.

The only way a set plays like this is if he is a bad multi tabler who just shovels money in with a set, disregarding flop texture and relative position, and just hoping his opponents are bad enough to pay him off.

But when 15/5 guys play hands real fast, they are generally trying to push you out with a draw, or a strong but not great hand.

I'd be very tempted to look up the turn bet. If he bet a reasonable amount I'd be much more likely to drop it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this helps explain some my points about the flop play. Now you are actually making a (convincing)case for hero calling off his stack with TPTK here even though the board is basically unchanged. If you raise the flop and get pushed you are probably beat and saved yourself half the stack you are about to call on the dry turn.

Maybe villain is a bluffing fool and hero snaps it off or maybe he is a multitabler who has no read on hero and figures he's just another donk who can't let go of AK.

Tough decision which would much easier with a raise on the flop (again, folding is a viable flop option).

Re: 200 NL
 

When you raise the flop to $90 or a $100 I almost guarantee the push is coming.

Re: 200 NL
 

When you call the flop I almost guarantee another bet is coming. This debate isn't going anywhere.. it just illustrates how important reads are. I'm ready for results.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you raise the flop to $90 or a $100 I almost guarantee the push is coming.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
When you call the flop I almost guarantee another bet is coming.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both statements are correct.

Can you see why?


(I've always wanted to say that)

Re: 200 NL
 

The turn bet isn't as likely as the flop push.

Sometimes he will go for the turn cr.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes he will go for the turn cr.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's how i'd play TT on this board (depending on my read [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Re: 200 NL
 

I guess I don't understand what draw the multitabler is on. If someone could elucidate me I would be grateful. I'm assuming that he isn't calling raises with QJo so this leaves four combinations of QJs (maybe) or three combinations of 44 and the occasional TT or AA. I think at best this is even money and tight multitablers at 200NL in my experience aren't very sophisticated.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to just muck in these situations on the flop. If a rock comes out betting big after limp calling a raise, I assume he hit a set. I always try to isolate the weaker players not play big pots with set miners (unless of course I have middle set or better).

[/ QUOTE ]

With this board why would you assume a set? Just because someone leads with calling a heavy raise into you does not mean a set.

Ed S.

Re: 200 NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I don't understand what draw the multitabler is on. If someone could elucidate me I would be grateful. I'm assuming that he isn't calling raises with QJo so this leaves four combinations of QJs (maybe) or three combinations of 44 and the occasional TT or AA. I think at best this is even money and tight multitablers at 200NL in my experience aren't very sophisticated.

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't missing anything. I think (and most posters too I believe) the correct line is to fold the flop without a better read.

What we are bickering over is, if you decide to continue in the hand, what is your next move and how often is TPTK good here.