My river play made me cringe.
 

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (9.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

River: (9.20 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.20 BB

Berate me.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

I don't understand the flop. Why no c/r or c/c?

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

The turn play should make you cringe, not the river. Bet that turn. The river play is OK, but you probably could've folded against the right player. You didn't give any reads.

P.S. Bet that turn.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

I suck at folding, but I could have folded this. I think you would have to with a pause to review the action. It is nearly impossible for there to be neither another ace nor a flush draw out there. Unless the other two players are uber donkeys there isn't much else they would be calling three bets with on the flop.

This is an especially ugly situation because given the board you don't even get to split with another ace with a lousy kicker. Anything better than ace five kills you.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

From what little I've read from you I'm thinking that you're a better player than me so I don't want to berate you but I'm curious as to your thinking. This really looks like you're beat but you are getting 12 to one to call him here and I'm usually thinking that villain might bluff here with something like QJ one in 12 times. Maybe I'd have spewed here too but I don't think it's that bad considering the pot size.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

At first I was thinking that a turn bet was good here too but what are we accomplishing with that? If you're up against 2 pair or a set you're probably getting raised. If you're against a better A you're at least getting called and then do you continue on the river? Yes you're defending against the free card but do we really want to make this play with TPNK against 2 players here?

If you check the river you're going to have to pay off a better Ace and a busted flush will get a free showdown. If you bet you're not getting called by someone you beat more than 50% of the time.

Hey, I'm probably wrong though.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

Post deleted. I'm not sure about this anymore.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

He played it like a flush draw the whole hand. There's no way I'm good. The river was a check-call.

On the turn, I thought I was up against a bigger Ace, so I was planning on check-calling. Turn wasn't dreadful IMO if I'm up against aggressive players.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

[ QUOTE ]
He played it like a flush draw the whole hand. There's no way I'm good. The river was a check-call.

On the turn, I thought I was up against a bigger Ace, so I was planning on check-calling. Turn wasn't dreadful IMO if I'm up against aggressive players.

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I don't understand why you think you're up against a bigger A. Specifically why did you 3-bet the flop if you thought that? IMO, if you're 3-betting the flop here you are bet/folding the turn almost always. Sometimes c/c the river after that.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

Push out the CO and maybe buy myself outs. I dunno. How would you play it? Agro hush style?

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

Flop play is good but you gotta bet the turn, otherwise dont 3bet the flop. Im not sure how your flop 3bet tells you you are behind a bigger ace.

The correct river play would have to be check/call but i usually bet this because i have 3 aces woooot!

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

Flop play would not have been my standard, I typically just check this and play according to the action. I think the reraise there is also quite thin with such a marginal kicker, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Given the flop 3-bet I think the turn is a must bet. Obviously this is even moreso the case given that it was checked through but either way I think this is a rather backwards way to play it.

River bet/call, like you said, is pretty bad. With no reads I like check/calling. Tough to fold to a raise against complete unknowns here but you're good here just about never when he raises (of course I haven't played this game so I could be off).

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

Ugh, your turn play is so much worse than your river play.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Push out the CO and maybe buy myself outs. I dunno. How would you play it? Agro hush style?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would generally check and see on the flop. If it's checked to button who bets, I think you have to raise because the pot is decent size and you have a good chance to knock out the two in the middle. I think when CO bets you in a tougher spot because there’s only one other guy in the middle. The problem is that we have to balance that fact that we're WA/WB CO most of the time and the fact we don't want to give odds to other players in the pot. To put it in a more concrete way, the advantage of a CR is that we are likely to lose UTG. The disadvantage is that he could 3-bet us with a worse hand and after he 3-bets I don't think you can call a turn bet. I would lead toward a CR here for another reason as well. I'm pretty uncomfortable with a turn check here if you c/c the flop and others come along. Therefore you loss much of the benefit of the WA/WB line in that you should be donking the turn and not letting CO bluff at it again.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

The CO folded.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

Yeah...I was talking kinda theoretically. It’s hard to know what would have happened if you had checked the flop.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you think you're up against a bigger A. Specifically why did you 3-bet the flop if you thought that? IMO, if you're 3-betting the flop here you are bet/folding the turn almost always. Sometimes c/c the river after that.

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This pot is huge on the flop. I suspect that it is often correct to 3bet here even if were are beat a high percentage of the time.

The problem sans reads is that we are beat a high percentage of the time and being first to act isnt helping us any. We can fold long shot draws, but we cant fold the obvious draw and we cant fold a better hand.

I don't think bet fold is a bad option on the turn at all. The way this flop was played I think people get silly there rarely enough that it doesnt much matter. The turn also pretty much kills our chance at a split which I guess might make a check a little more tempting.

On the river neither bet call or bet fold seem very attractive to me.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you think you're up against a bigger A. Specifically why did you 3-bet the flop if you thought that? IMO, if you're 3-betting the flop here you are bet/folding the turn almost always. Sometimes c/c the river after that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This pot is huge on the flop. I suspect that it is often correct to 3bet here even if were are beat a high percentage of the time.

The problem sans reads is that we are beat a high percentage of the time and being first to act isnt helping us any. We can fold long shot draws, but we cant fold the obvious draw and we cant fold a better hand.

I don't think bet fold is a bad option on the turn at all. The way this flop was played I think people get silly there rarely enough that it doesnt much matter. The turn also pretty much kills our chance at a split which I guess might make a check a little more tempting.

On the river neither bet call or bet fold seem very attractive to me.

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But why lead the flop to begin with?

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

[ QUOTE ]
But why lead the flop to begin with?

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A few off the top of my head
PFR is fairly late to act increasing the chance of a check through which is [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

This isnt the most spectacular spot for the traditional c/r protection.

We actually put quite alot of pressure on UTG just by leading and him knowing the PFR is acting behind him on a scary board.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But why lead the flop to begin with?

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A few off the top of my head
PFR is fairly late to act increasing the chance of a check through which is [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

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I think that's actually pretty rare. I mean he has to check and BT has to check. Most players are continuing to bet here because of the A-high flop even if they don't have an A. Plus he could easily have hit a Q here. Those rare times he doesn't bet, BT will bet it a significant amount. I'd be surprised if this got checked though more then 10-15% of the time. In addition, giving CO/BT a chance to bet here doesn't let them get away from nothing for free.

Re: My river play made me cringe.
 

Interesting hand. I like the checkraise on the flop as opposed to betting out. I found your 3 bet strange with this holding. I found it particularly strange that you would 3 bet the flop OOP and then check a blank turn. Why is checking a good play here? You're giving a free card to any draws and if I was button I would have been highly suspicious of the flop 3bet and turn check, which makes it likely that it's going to get checked through.
On the river if you want to bet this then you specifically must be able to fold to a raise from the UTG player. The second Ace hasn't scared him at all and this absolutely stinks of a flush or a better hand.

Because 6max tables play so fast, often when I'm in the heat of the action on the river with a board like this I just automatically bet in the same spot. I did it in a very stupid way just last night. I have to remind myself to slow down and have a good look at the board and why I may or may not want to bet.