88 Out of Position
 

I never grasp the line an opponent took in the following hand, so maybe you can explain it to me. Comments on my play also welcome:

Villain raises 3 off button and I 3-bet in CO, all fold and villain calls.

Flop is:
4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villain bets, I raise, villain calls.

Turn is:
7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain checks, I bet, villain calls.

River is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Vilain checks, I check.

For now I'll mereley reveal villain's hand and please evaluate his play...he showed black 8s.

Later I'll tell you my hand.

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

Villain's openraise from MP is standard.

He doesn't know whether you hit the flop or not, and he's got a hand so he decides to take the lead and inform you of this fact. When you raise, he hopes you have overcard(s) and/or a flush draw and he decides to call down.

Many are incapable of folding medium pocket pairs in this spot, so they just call down and pray. It's very profitable (for you).

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

So then is it ever the right line? Do they usually fold big bet streets when a flush card or Bway card comes? How about a 9?

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

I don't like Villain's flop lead very much. He's a big underdog to your range on that flop, and you were going to auto-bet anyway, right?

However, let's say your range is AA-TT and AK-AQ. In that case, about one time out of three Villain will currently be in the lead on the flop. He also has the worst of the outs (even when he's a favorite, he's not a favorite by much), and his equity sucks. But if an ace, king, or jack falls, he'll see that card and can check-fold. And if none of those cards fall, you might take a free card on the turn or take a free showdown on the river.

So, aside from the flop lead, I think Villain's play is all right.

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

I don't like villain's line at all. Since the flop has been addressed, I'm going to provide my thoughts on the turn. The optimal turn line is bet/fold, in my opinion. When villain is ahead, you'll have ~10 outs (villain is likely only ahead of AK, and possibly AJ), and therefore it's paramount villain charges draws, and avoids giving a free card.

I also think there's a strong argument for check/folding the flop because of the reverse implied odds. It's likely villain is behind, and when ahead you have a vast number of outs to improve to a superior hand. Conversely, villain's drawing close to dead, and it's unlikely you'll pay off with a busted draw/overs.

Come to think of it, I'm leaning toward simply folding the flop.

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

I think the villian played this hand well...

...up to the flop.

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like villain's line at all. Since the flop has been addressed, I'm going to provide my thoughts on the turn. The optimal turn line is bet/fold, in my opinion. When villain is ahead, you'll have ~10 outs (villain is likely only ahead of AK, and possibly AJ), and therefore it's paramount villain charges draws, and avoids giving a free card.

I also think there's a strong argument for check/folding the flop because of the reverse implied odds. It's likely villain is behind, and when ahead you have a vast number of outs to improve to a superior hand. Conversely, villain's drawing close to dead, and it's unlikely you'll pay off with a busted draw/overs.

Come to think of it, I'm leaning toward simply folding the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a turn donk is fine so long as Villain isn't too concerned about getting semibluff-raised.

Hero is unlikely to fold any of his likely holdings on the turn. And if he won't fold AKo, then a turn donk is worth about 3/4 to 4/5 of a BB versus that hand, assuming Hero will always take the free card with AK if offered and will never raise the turn with AK.

Plus, if Hero can be counted on to raise only his better hands, then Villain can lay down now and avoid a difficult river decision (at the cost of losing his small chance of spiking a set).

The reason I hesitate to bet-fold the turn is that I've been running into some very aggressive overcard play (well, that's how it seems to me -- I'm still adjusting to 5/10), and I'm worried that a turn donk will look like a bet-fold line and will invite Hero to call with some hands that have Villain beat and semibluff-raise with hands that don't. Also, I think a lot of players will fire again anyway with AK (if checked to).

On the flop, I don't have a big problem with check-folding, but I would probably check-call instead.

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

Sounds very simply like a fish who's praying you have AK. Is he right? His line still sucks, but thats why he is a fish, no?

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

By the way, if Villain had a read that Hero was likely to auto-bet AK on the flop but then check that hand with outs unimproved on the turn, then I think the following line should become a consideration for Villain:

Check-call flop, check-fold turn unimproved. If the turn checks through, figure you have the best hand and either check-call on a river blank, hoping to induce a bluff, or bet a river blank, hoping to get called by ace-high.

My hand
 

Of course I had AdJd and mhing. I always 3-bet PF AJs here since too many people in my games seem to think 6-max means raise any Axo UTG.

As for the flop, of course I was autobetting and I was autoraising as well. Villain's lead seemed so childish...what hand 3bets PF but mucks for 1 SB on a QTx 2-tone flop? 99? So the bet will never fold me and will never gain valuable info since I'm raising it nearly every time. The turn is a standard continution for me since I have a monster draw and might even have the best hand. The river check-behind is also standard, but I'm wondering if there are people out there who continue to bet as a bluff (this play actually occasionally works in mid-limit BM since some players "know" that you wouldnt bet the river with A-high and thus must have better than 88).

Re: My hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I always 3-bet PF AJs here since too many people in my games seem to think 6-max means raise any Axo UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this belongs in the short-handed small stakes section. I believe everyone here who has responded to your post thought it was a full ring game. Short-hand theory and play is much more different than full game. Calling with 88 here in a 6-max game is much better than when playing 10-handed.

Re: My hand
 

As unknown said, I replied to this thread under the impression the game was 10-handed. The fact that it was 6-handed does change the hand somewhat; since you're 3-betting range is obviously wider. But with that being said, I think the bulk of advice given still applies. Turn play may change in my opinion, with check/calling being superior since the possibility of you raising a draw increases. Anyway, I think Nick summed this line up well, so be sure to refer to his posts.

Regarding bluffing the river, I think it's depends significantly on villain's play style and ability. Without a specific read, I doubt anyone can make this call with any sort of accuracy.

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, aside from the flop lead, I think Villain's play is all right.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess your hand was too weak to value bet the river?

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, aside from the flop lead, I think Villain's play is all right.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess your hand was too weak to value bet the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Villain is going to bet the river, it isn't for value, exactly. Villain is not only an underdog if Hero doesn't fold, but Villain is also a substantial underdog at the time when he's making the bet. I don't think Hero will fold a better hand, and if that's the case, Villain is betting hoping to get called by ace-high and also hoping not to get bluff-raised by a Hero who recognizes the check-call, check-call, bet line and wants to try to exploit it.

It's true that Hero will bet his winning hands if checked to (except for maybe JJ and also maybe 99). And, sometimes, Hero won't bet AK himself. But sometimes he will (if the play I've been running into lately is any indication), and in my opinion we're too big of an underdog to make a river bet worthwhile. Aside from opening ourselves up to a bluff-raise, I'm also not entirely sure Hero will call with AK more often than he'll bluff with it if checked to.

If (as Villain) we're going to be aggressive in the hand, I think the place to do so is on the turn. And I think it's a good idea to do so if our read is that Hero is straightforward when facing aggression on the big streets. (But if Hero is the type to take a free card on the turn with AK, then I like a turn check-fold for Villain.)

And, anyway, all of this is assuming a full table. On the actual short table, Hero's range is wider and there's also probably a little more bluffing and semi-bluffing going on. I'm not sure how much we should expand Hero's range, but if we're including the actual AJ, for instance, then maybe the case for a river bet becomes a little stronger. Well, except for this: Will Hero actually call with AJ? Hmm. If we're seeing a showdown, I think I still like check-calling the river.

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

hey nick,

by the time i realized what hero had i could not edit my post. when i asked i did not know what hero held. only a bluffoon would bet AdJd here, especially against an opponent who is clearly calling down.

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

[ QUOTE ]
hey nick,

by the time i realized what hero had i could not edit my post. when i asked i did not know what hero held. only a bluffoon would bet AdJd here, especially against an opponent who is clearly calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I thought you were talking about a value bet from Villain's 88.

I agree that, for Hero, firing again with AJ won't work often enough.

Re: My hand
 

I don't think I like your turn bet. When villain raises pf and then bet-calls on a flop like that, they are usually going to see a showdown (unless the board gets really scary) and you are usually behind w/A high.

Re: 88 Out of Position
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, aside from the flop lead, I think Villain's play is all right.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess your hand was too weak to value bet the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Villain is going to bet the river, it isn't for value, exactly. Villain is not only an underdog if Hero doesn't fold, but Villain is also a substantial underdog at the time when he's making the bet. I don't think Hero will fold a better hand, and if that's the case, Villain is betting hoping to get called by ace-high and also hoping not to get bluff-raised by a Hero who recognizes the check-call, check-call, bet line and wants to try to exploit it.

It's true that Hero will bet his winning hands if checked to (except for maybe JJ and also maybe 99). And, sometimes, Hero won't bet AK himself. But sometimes he will (if the play I've been running into lately is any indication), and in my opinion we're too big of an underdog to make a river bet worthwhile. Aside from opening ourselves up to a bluff-raise, I'm also not entirely sure Hero will call with AK more often than he'll bluff with it if checked to.

If (as Villain) we're going to be aggressive in the hand, I think the place to do so is on the turn. And I think it's a good idea to do so if our read is that Hero is straightforward when facing aggression on the big streets. (But if Hero is the type to take a free card on the turn with AK, then I like a turn check-fold for Villain.)

And, anyway, all of this is assuming a full table. On the actual short table, Hero's range is wider and there's also probably a little more bluffing and semi-bluffing going on. I'm not sure how much we should expand Hero's range, but if we're including the actual AJ, for instance, then maybe the case for a river bet becomes a little stronger. Well, except for this: Will Hero actually call with AJ? Hmm. If we're seeing a showdown, I think I still like check-calling the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post is well thought out. Thanks.

However, I disagree with my PF range being wider 6max vs. ring game. In fact, only difference woud be I might float a tight raiser with a few more hands in a full game (AJs, AQo, 88, KK, but I'd only do this occasionally anyway). In general, wrong or not, I usually treat UTG 6max similarly to 3 off button full.

As far as river goes, I've given up on the obviously no good A-high call down so you'd see me calling AJ/AK only occasionally and raising even less frequently (something like 5-10%). So in summary:

1) villain is an underdog to my range (AA-88, AK-AQ, AJs, KQs for arguments sake). We also have to severely discount 88 and 99 since I would never have raised the flop with them.

2) villain will occasionally induce a bluff raise out of me but will only very rarely get a weak A-high call out of me.

3) Most people check behind UI high cards on the river most of the time.

Without any math, this seems to argue for a check/fold river line fairly strongly...but of course this line is definitely exploitable if you try it too often.