Turn/river play with KK
 

$1/2, I open K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG, guy who just sat down 3-bets OTB and I cap.

Flop A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

I bet, he calls.

Turn 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check/call (?)

River 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I check/call (?)

I'm sure there's a better line for this one.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

bet/call, if he raises check/fold river
bet/fold river otherwise

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

Yeah my line was bad and this isn't even that hard. Thanks, lol.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

There's no way I'm folding this hand. I'm just having trouble deciding between bet/calling or check/calling the turn.

He just sat down, so I think if you bet and he raises the turn, check/folding if you miss the spade on the river isn't very good. He could be raising with lots of non-A hands, looking for a free showdown or semi-bluffing with a hand like QxQs or JxJs. Even QJ with a spade might throw a bluff in there.

You beat way too man non-A hands to let this go on a semi-bluffable board.

I think I'd bet the turn. If raised, check/call. If just called, the river would be tough. Obviously bet a spade river, and I think bet a non-spade river. I might check/call if a Q or J falls, but that might not be right. I think if he has a hand like 99-77, he'll fold on a three paint board, and his other possible holdings if he didn't raise the turn are KK-JJ, AQ, AJ.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah my line was bad and this isn't even that hard. Thanks, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't take my word as being exactly right either yet. Let some others chime in. FWIW, no matter how many times hands like these happen they still churn my stomach. Maybe its not that hard but it is just a tough position to be in, that's probably why you posted it.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
bet/call, if he raises check/fold river
bet/fold river otherwise

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhh, this is not good advice at all.

you seriously advocate B/Cing the turn, then C/Fing the river? if youre calling the turn raise you should be calling the river bet - nothing has changed, except the pot is now larger by 2BB.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

axioma,

I think he meant because of the nut flush draw. However, I still disagree with his advice.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
if youre calling the turn raise you should be calling the river bet - nothing has changed, except the pot is now larger by 2BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, Hero missed his nut flush draw.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

I think putting in three bets on the turn/river is too much. The majority of the time this turn raise means an ace, and although he *might* make this play with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Qx, its doubtful whether he bets the river.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think putting in three bets on the turn/river is too much. The majority of the time this turn raise means an ace, and although he *might* make this play with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Qx, its doubtful whether he bets the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on what? He just sat down and you have no reads. If he was a passive guy, OK. Against an unknown, I'm going to showdown with KK.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

ahh yes, i did not see the FD, my mistake. the suggestion to C/F the river UI is more understandable now heh.

however my point remains the same: i am not folding this to an unknown for 1 more bet on the river getting 10.5-1.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

Just based on the general nature of how unknowns play (at these stakes). So it's an assumption, but not necessarily an incorrect one.

I realize that check/calling the way down lets him bet better hands and check worse ones, but I still think if he peels the flop and raises the turn I'm toast too often to call the river.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

since we have now established we are getting to the river, surely general experiance and common sense tells us we are good here against a random guy > 10% of the time.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

Axioma,

I agree a showdown is in order. What are your thoughts on betting the turn vs. checking the turn?

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Axioma,

I agree a showdown is in order. What are your thoughts on betting the turn vs. checking the turn?

[/ QUOTE ] There is tons of value in betting here. So many worse hands call here, but yet not as many worse hands will villian bet with after you check.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

I agree, just curious on Axioma's thoughts.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
ahh yes, i did not see the FD, my mistake. the suggestion to C/F the river UI is more understandable now heh.

however my point remains the same: i am not folding this to an unknown for 1 more bet on the river getting 10.5-1.

[/ QUOTE ]
Understood, you're probably right. How about this line
bet turn, call if raised and then call one more on river UI. Reasoning, pot is large you are good here enough times and villian will often pull a semibluff turn raise with QQ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] JJ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] etc.

OTOH, if you bet the turn, he calls, you bet the river after missing your [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draw and he raises can you advocate a fold? I think a bluff raise is significantly less likely on the river than a semibluff raise on the turn.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

Not on a drawy board it isn't. It's less likely, but it's still going to happen. I'd call the raise. I'd consider folding if it were a J or Q, like I mentioned above.

Re: Turn/river play with KK
 

first, we have to bet this turn for sure, its just a very basic value bet, for reasons mentioned above.

if we are raised, in this particular case we have an easy call.

so we now find ourselves at the river with a pair of K's on an A high board agaisnt a single opponent who 3 bet PF, and raised the A high board on the turn. not a particularly nice situation to be in at all.

if our opponent bets when we check to him, we will be getting 10.5-1 on a call, which i personally think is *just* good enough to warrant a call, given that we have no info on the opponent. this is not based on any particular mathmatical anylysis (which you cant really do anyway against an unknown) so i could be off, but in my experiance we are shown some random hand we beat enough times to make calling profitable.

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if the opp. just calls the turn, again i think we have to value bet the river. a raise here is cetainly more scary than a turn raise, but i just dont see how i could fold without some kind of decent read on the guy. either way it has to be *very* close id say.

the descision to call or fold the river if raised is the only one of the bunch that is really difficult i reckon. calling would not be terrible, folding would not be terrible. again, since we dont know the opponent, i tend towards calling when it is otherwise so close.

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i havent really mentioned the suited nature of the board yet. yes, the guy could have made a flush on the turn, and equally he could be semi-bluff/ free showdowning a PP with a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], which in a way act almost to cancel each other out.

either way, i just dont think it swings things enough to impact on any of the individual descisions we might have to make.