Leak #1 Overcards.
 

In an effort to actually improve my game, I have decided to actually post some of the leaks I feel that I have.

Leak number one (Scenario)

3/6 or 4/8 live on a table full of LAPs with a LAG or 2 thrown in.

I am on the button or cutoff with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
4-5 limps to me and I raise it up. 5 see the flop.

Flop J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

All check to me I bet. 3 call.
Turn 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] All check to me. I fire the second barrel (Hell, I might get em to fold) 2 call

River 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] All check to me and I figure the only way that I am going to win this approximate 10 BB hand is with a bet so I fire again and lose to a call from a player with TP/WK or MP/TK. I think overall I am losing money on overcards.

Any ideas? Am I too aggressive with position?

Now that I think about it, I don't always do this just when I have position. I can do this from almost any position as well.

If I check the flop, how many outs do you count the over cards as having, on a ragged flop, a flop with 2 suits, and a flop that is like JT7?

Tomorrow, Am I too aggressive when the flop pairs?

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

wow...you put in 2.5 big bets more than you should have here...

preflop: you raise because you have an equity edge...good job [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

flop: 5/6 players saw this flop, A hi is not the best hand, you will not get everyone to fold in this big pot, take your free card...it is costing you money to bet this flop...

turn: take the free card now please, you paid for it with your flop bet, if he called the flop bet then this card is unlikely to have changed his mind, unless he had something like AK (unlikely) because most other hands that peel the flop will either have a pair or a gutshot (QT/89)

river: your bet is not gonna pick up the pot here if the guy got this far, just turn your hand over and cross your fingers, these postflop bets with nothing in large pots against large fields are costing you a lot of money...

so in recap: preflop good, check flop, check turn, check river...

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

Playing overcards sucks.

This answer makes "very much" sense, though.

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

Many of the better players on these boards have said it over and over...you need to not only understand what the better play is, but also understand why it is the better play.

I play online and live low limit - adjusting to the loose/passives in the live games is very important. They call. They like calling. Trying to make them fold is usually not a winning play.

In your hand example:

Preflop: Raise is fine. Value with a hand that plays well multiway. Get the money in.

Flop: I am not saying it is wrong to bet here. Just realize that when you do any pair and any gutshot is getting odds to call. And in the type of game you described you will not know where you stand because TP is likely not raising.

Turn: Pot is big yes. Whether to bet depends on how many callers are in and what your read is on these players.
I usually give up on these hands and take the free look at the river.

Betting the turn and the river UI is a bad case of wishful thinking.

Edit: to say that I remember starting out when it felt very funny to raise preflop and then quit on the hand. Especially live people will criticize you and such. Get used to it.

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

Too many opponents in this hand, just check behind on the flop. After 3 players call on the flop you should definitely not be betting the turn again with ace high!

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

It should be pretty obvious from other responses what you did wrong, so I'll chime in a little something different. Let's say the player to your immediate right bets. The pot should be laying you about 12:1. This is a pretty uncoordinated board, so wheras I'd normally discount my 6 outs to 3, I'll give myself at least 4 here, and 6 outs total. So, I want to see the turn, and I'm going to see it with a raise. There's no flush draw and only one open-ender, but lots of gutshots and 5-outers, so raising will take away most people's odds. Also, it could easily push out A4 and it's unlikely the bettor has a very strong hand (88 and 44 being the prime exceptions) and the game is passive, so the chances of getting a free card are high.

Scott

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

pre-flop: good play

flop: This requires a table read. Some passive players just want to see a flop, then will fold if it misses. So whether you take your free card here or try to get one on the turn depends on who you are up against. The one main lesson I've learned these past two months is it's ok to check/fold overcard connectors.

turn: check here regardless of what you did on the flop.

river: check/fold

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

Most everything has been said so far but let me add to the discussion. On a passive live table, I bet the flop here. A high percentage of time in these games, the passive players will check to you on the turn as well and you get to see the river for one small bet. However, I don't bet every flop this way. I bet the flop on this board because I have two overcards and two backdoor draws, therefore there is more of a reason I will want to see the river. If, on the other hand, the flop were J-7-4 no diamond, I'm checking the flop because I'm only drawing to overcards.

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

check the flop, fold the turn, fold the river

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

I don't hate the flop bet, but i don't like the turn and river. I think we have the best hand or fold a better hand i.e. small pocket pair 20% of the time maybe, and it also may buy us a free card on the turn. If it buys us a free card, which it should have here had we not bet, it's not bad at all.

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

pre-flop okay...pre flop play is the easiest for anyone to learn as per SSHE

the feedback given to this point is all good, i would suggest to attempt to vary your some play based upon your assessment of the other players...sometimes not betting versus passive callers is good, particularly on a hand that developes into a marginal one post-flop...indeed, you strive to be somewhat unpredictable, thus your opponents must take more risk in playing against you...by always betting when you think you might be ahead, you make it easy for your opponents...indeed, you would like your opponents in this game to say to themselves afterward...gee, what a small pot-i should have bet more...

the skill of poker is learning when/how to vary you play versus your opponent.

best of luck

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Too many opponents in this hand, just check behind on the flop. After 3 players call on the flop you should definitely not be betting the turn again with ace high!

[/ QUOTE ]

Would your advice be different if there were fewer players? For instance, say you raise pre-flop and get 2 callers. Flop is rags, and you bet--and one of the two folds, leaving you heads up. Would you then bet the turn?

I've got to say, that a lot of the low limit players I've played against will call the flop, but fold to the turn if you bet out again. Of course, if they DON'T, then I'm left stuck with a decision on the river.
My feeling at that point is usually if there is a flush or straight draw out there that misses, I will bet in case my opponent is on a draw and misses. I figure once I've bet it that far, I might as well bet the river. (Actually I read this in a Cardplayer article once--that too many people fire out at every street, but then just roll over at the river...)


That said, however--I think also that this is a leak in my game. I need to just let these go more often, probably.

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

[ QUOTE ]


indeed, you strive to be somewhat unpredictable, thus your opponents must take more risk in playing against you...by always betting when you think you might be ahead, you make it easy for your opponents...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what this means.

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

When I first started playing limit hold'em it was playing 1-3 and 3/6 at Turning Stone.

A dealer there named "Walter" had a really bad habit of critiquing people's play during his downs. But, then again, he also was hilarious and a competent dealer.

He once made the following comment to me during a game:

"You're style's never going to win at this level. You can't just keep firing away with AK if you don't hit anything on the flop."

Having read some books and thinking I was good I thought "you don't know what you're talking about... you're a dealer."

Needless to say, I some time later had a great epiphany when I realized that there are many times in limit hold'em where it's okay to check, even if you were the last aggressor.

So, listen to Walter...

You should check every street on this hand.

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

Great thread - I'm very guilty of this exact thing myself... Bet the flop with overs (which I think is reasonable as it will likely buy you a free card) then I bet the turn (which is bad) because I figure they might have wanted to see a single card and then I bet the river thinking that is the only way I'll win...

I'm going to see if I can write a query against the Poker Tracker DB that will give me some proof so I can stop doing this or at least modify my approach...

I'll be looking for scenarios where I was the aggressor pre-flop and had two over cards after the flop but with no flush draw or open-ended straight draw and play was checked to me. I'm not sure how big that sample will be but from there I'll try to do some analysis based on # of opponents and position. Not an exact science by any means but hopefully some type of conclusion can be drawn from the data.

rvg

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

RVG, some stats would be great.

Thanks for the responses guys. I know this is a leak of mine. any info on when to fire the first barrel, second barrel and third barrel? What I am now thinking

Keys for a flop bet.

1) Number of callers preflop > or equal to 4 generally means check.

2) Bet only with position

3) Be more likely to bet a ragged flop rather than a coordinated one

4) Backdoor straights or flushs may make you more likely to bet as it might ensure a free card

Turn bets.

1) If the Turn helps anything, be less inclined to bet

2) Position is important. The later to act the more likely to bet

3) Yould should not bet into 3 or more players unless you have a very good read on them and feel they will all fold

River bet

1) you will rarely chase more than 1 or 2 people out

2) You can do this only if all draws obviously miss (meaning you may be good anyway)


Overall, it is Ok to bet the flop if you feel it will at least get you a free card. After that, it is not a sin to slow down.

Am I right?

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

Haven't read all the other comments so if i am redundant forgive me. I think with 3 or 4 opponnets betting into them with nothing does not have any bluff value. I have been called down with a pair of twos and broadway cards on the board to lose with my ACE high.
Most of the time I would be taking my free card on the flop. If I have only 2 opponnents I betting to the turn and checking behind on the river.
The question is do you bet the flop hoping for a free card if unimproved or check through for the free card now and reevaluate the turn.
If the field is really passive and I think the board looks uncoordinated enough that I won't get checkraised I might bet the flop with the hopes of getting a free card on the turn. If I have a serial checkraising LAG out there who is trying to thin the field and get heads up with me with his bottom pair with K or A kicker I would just check the flop and reevaluate the turn.

Re: Leak #1 Overcards.
 

You have a pot equity advantage PF - so you bet.

You do NOT have a pot equity edge on the flop - so you don't bet based on pot equity alone. Only bet when your pot equity + fold equity + free card to improve to best hand equity gives you a better chance to win the hand than the odds given on your bet. In B&M against that many players, you fold equity is basically nil. You probably will get a free card against these guys, but i'd be afraid of all the Ax and Qx hands that have you reverse dominated, so a free card play may not even be that valuable here either.

You beat loose passives by value betting, not by trying to push 5 of them off their 1-pair/weak draws in a large pot.