Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

Two players see a flop. Let's say SB vs. BB for ease of explination (it doesn't matter).

There was a raise preflop to, say, 200 by the BB and it was called by the SB (after he open limped).

On the flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB has t875 behind.
BB has around t1400 behind.

SB checks
BB grabs a bunch of chips from a mixed stack of t25's and t100's and plops them out as a bet. Dealer isn't asked for and doesn't offer up a count of how many chips the bet is. SB thinks for a bit and says (I'll try to get this exact):

"Let's do it"
Exposes his hand (Qd8d for flush draw)
then grabs all his chips and puts them in front of him (past the betting line)

BB doesn't do anything except ask for a count. It comes to 875 and then they count his initial bet and it comes out to 700, so there is still t175 worth of 'action'.
BB claims that SB's hand is dead and wants a ruling.

That is exactly what happened and was explained to the floor by the dealer perfectly and there was no dispute over the facts of the action.

What is the correct ruling? (note that everyone knew that SB assumed that the bet covered him and his intent was not to shoot an angle for the remaining t175)

The floor is very experienced (has worked the WSOP before) and made what I thought was a surprising ruling.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

Why can't people just say "all-in"?

"Let's do it"? wtf?

That said, I don't think a hand should be ruled dead for exposing itself, and certainly not in heads up play. So BB now has to deal with knowledge of his opponents' cards... I'd take that any day of the week.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why can't people just say "all-in"?

"Let's do it"? wtf?

That said, I don't think a hand should be ruled dead for exposing itself, and certainly not in heads up play. So BB now has to deal with knowledge of his opponents' cards... I'd take that any day of the week.

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it wouldn't have been any different if you change the 'let's do it' to 'let's do it, i'm all in'. this isn't a string raise question.

the fact that it's heads up has no bearing on this situation since it's a tournament.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

wasn't there just a thread yesterday saying exposed hands are not killed but instead the player is just penalized?

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

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wasn't there just a thread yesterday saying exposed hands are not killed but instead the player is just penalized?

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yes there was.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

Hand is dead.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

In a purely textualist sense, I believe the hand is dead. I'm no expert, but I think the rule is that exposing your hand before acting will dead your hand. Clearly, saying "let's do it" is not "acting" on your hand. That said, SB put chips in after the exposure so those chips are not included in the pot (i.e. BB wins only the preflop pot plus his bet).

On the other hand, the purpose of the rule, IMHO, is to prevent card exposures from ruining multi-way action or to prevent collusion. This is not the case here. In HU action, no 3rd party can be harmed. Therefore, card exposures ought not dead a hand, SB will still be live, and he acted on his hand by moving in.

I have a feeling the first approach is more commonly used...

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

Problem is he exposes his hand before BB has decided to call or not. Not that BB would ever fold, or should be unhappy about gaining this info.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

Where I play, SB's hand is dead.

(And BB gets beaten up in the parking lot)

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

It makes a huge difference. If you are to say that exposure results in a dead hand, then the pot is won by BB at the point when the cards are exposed. In the OP, SB put chips in after exposing his hand. Verbal actions are binding. "let's do it" is not an action. "let's do it - I'm all-in" IS an action.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

No, that's not the problem. You either use the textualist interpretation or the public policy interpretation. It's not the place of the floor to predict what BB would have done, basing the ruling on that prediction.

[Sorry, I'm a law student - this is how we think :P ]

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

Damn. I wrote up a very nice response to this and computer froze. Here's the frustrated version with poor attempts at copying lost wording:

It sucks, but the SB's hand is dead because this can be used as collusion.

To clarify, imagine that the tournament is on the bubble and SB shows a hand that let's BB know that the odds he's getting are slightly low. If BB folds here, it's usually a +EV play for both SB and BB, which means that the rest of the players in the tournament lose equity because SB showed his cards.

Since the floor can't distinguish between the example I just gave and this situation, the floor has to deal with them in similar ways--by killing the hand.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

Haven't read any responses. IMO, this is a technicality, but the SB's hand is dead because he exposed his hand before declaring anything - "lets do it" is vague and his chips were moving in after exposing the hand.

Technically SB's hand is dead, IMO.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't read any responses. IMO, this is a technicality, but the SB's hand is dead because he exposed his hand before declaring anything - "lets do it" is vague and his chips were moving in after exposing the hand.

Technically its a fold, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has nothing to do with the fact that he hadn't declared his action yet, but the fact that another player still had to make a decision.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

I agree-beat up BB in the parking lot

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
It makes a huge difference. If you are to say that exposure results in a dead hand, then the pot is won by BB at the point when the cards are exposed. In the OP, SB put chips in after exposing his hand. Verbal actions are binding. "let's do it" is not an action. "let's do it - I'm all-in" IS an action.

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i stand corrected. good point.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

I would think his hand is dead after exposing his cards.
"let's do it" does not clearly imply all-in.
The subsequent action of grabbing all his chips is after his hand is dead.

On a sidenote: "poker players are scum"

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

OK, so almost everyone seems to agree that the hand was dead. What was the actual ruling?

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

I thought exposing your hand while still in and then not folding that hand was a 10 minute penalty, not that the hand is dead. That came up a few times down at Indiana WSOP and that is how the rule played out there. The player who exposed his hand when it was his turn to act was given an option of playing the rest of the hand and be given a 10 minute penalty or folding and no penalty.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

I think "let's do it" is irrelevant. It's whether or not exposing his cards while there is still action left should kill his hand. I think not. Exposing his cards does not benefit him at all as giving more information to the BB can only help, not hurt him.

I think there are a couple of options here. The standard ruling would be that the BB can decide whether or not to make the call pre-flop knowing what the SB has. A slightly more creative ruling could be to treat the SB's action as a call, and thus give the BB the chance to see the flop before deciding if he'll put in the few extra chips. A more aggressive version of that would be to require the SB to put all of his chips in the pot (force him to bet the remaining chips on the flop) but allow the BB to make his decision after the flop.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

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Haven't read any responses. IMO, this is a technicality, but the SB's hand is dead because he exposed his hand before declaring anything - "lets do it" is vague and his chips were moving in after exposing the hand.

Technically its a fold, IMO.

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It has nothing to do with the fact that he hadn't declared his action yet, but the fact that another player still had to make a decision.

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yes, very poorly worded post. I should go back to lurking..ugg.. I know the key issue is that there is still action left, albeit quite an easy decision.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

BB can call or fold for 175. After the hand is done, IF SB has chips left he will be given a 10 minute penalty for exposing his hand.

Other possibility is that "let's do it" indicates a call. In which case, BB gets a free turn card, action continues on the turn. SB still gets 10 minute penalty for exposing hand.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought exposing your hand while still in and then not folding that hand was a 10 minute penalty, not that the hand is dead. That came up a few times down at Indiana WSOP and that is how the rule played out there. The player who exposed his hand when it was his turn to act was given an option of playing the rest of the hand and be given a 10 minute penalty or folding and no penalty.

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I had a hand in which villian exposed an ace (ace on board too) after I had put him all-in (ON A BLUFF!!!!). He was allowed to call or fold, but got a ten-minute penalty regardless of his decision. He chose poorly. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

I think this is the proper result. "lets do it" = call.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

This is a very simple ruling. SB exposed his hand before action was completed. SBs hand is dead. He keeps his chips, as the hand was dead before he pushed them in.

Edit: This is a general rule in most houses in most tournaments. The rules for the specific house or tournament may be different. In every tournament and house I play in (in Atlantic City), the ruling is as I posted it.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

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This is a very simple ruling. SB exposed his hand before action was completed. SBs hand is dead. He keeps his chips, as the hand was dead before he pushed them in.

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Rule 35 from the Tournament Director's Association:

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A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.

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Now, some people might say it's an easy decision because that's the way it is at their own casino. And not every casino or tournament uses the TDA rules. It's all up to the TD but hopefully the decision is based on fairness and not some technicality. For example, had the SB turned his cards over, looked into the soul of the BB and then pushed in his chips. Well, there's definitely an issue there (although according to TDA he'd be penalized and not have a dead hand). But that's a little different then if he turns over his cards and almost immediately pushes his chips in the middle. In that situation, I don't even think a penalty should apply as the SB didn't intentionally do something to gain an advantage nor did he affect anybody else since the hand was heads up.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

I was wrong. The last live tournament I played in was the Borgata Open. I still have the rules. Rule 13 states:

A player that exposes their cards during play will receive a warning but will not have their hand declared dead. any subsequent exposing of their hand will result in having their hand declared dead, time penalties, and possible expulsion from the tournament. 10 - 20 - 30 minutes away from the table will be used.

Also, we have rule 29:

Penalties: A penalty may be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, etc. etc. Penalties will be invoked in cases of abuse, disruptive behavior, and similar incidents. Penalties will start with 10 minutes away from the table, and can go up to expulsion from the tournament.

So, if this is his first offense, his hand is live and he gets a warning.

I know that at both the Tropicana and Taj Mahal in Atlantic City, the hand would be dead. The Borgata uses more 'Las Vegas-like' rules rather than standard AC rules. So, again, it depends on the rules of the house and/or the tournament.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

This situation happend to me in Vegas a couple months ago.

Final Table ~5 players:

Fold, MP raises 3x bb, fold, fold, Me in BB w/ATs

What struck me as odd was MP was semi short, and had been open pushing all night, and I made mention to the fact that he now just raised.

I sit back in my chair and think for a moment (I had him covered 3-1). In my head I'm thinking I'm playing for all his chips, and I'm sure he was thinking the same. I loudly announce call and he filps his cards showing 77 and starts to push the rest of his chips in. Table goes nuts, dealer makes him take his chips back leving the PFR, and deals the flop. While no official penalty, he has the unfortuante pleasure of me knowing his hole cards the rest of the (short) hand.

In your situation, SB didn't announce raise or all in, & he moved his chips to the middle. I don't see how that can be considered anything other than a call. Exposing his hand benifits no one but his opponent.

Put it this way, "let's do it!' doesn't mean hes folding. Call plain and simple.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

Except that you don't have to verbalize your actions. "let's do it" doesn't really mean "call" "all-in" "bet" "raise" or "fold". However, pushing all of your chips into the pot in one motion means you are going all-in. Now, verbal counts more than physical (if you say raise to 20K, but put 2K in the pot, the dealer will request that you kindly put in the other 18K), but here there is no verbal, only physical, thus the bet is All-in.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

There is no question that SB thought he was calling an all-in bet, correct? Given that fact, killing his hand would be perverse even if the "letter" of the rule says his hand should die (and I don't think the letter of rule so states).
TDs must exercise common sense!

I would say that action is now to the BB, who can call or fold for the remaining T175. I would also give a warning to SB for exposing his hand AND give a warning to BB for keeping "mixed stacks" that result in this kind of problem. Players must keep their stacks tidy.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

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TDs must exercise common sense!

I would say that action is now to the BB, who can call or fold for the remaining T175

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Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

since when do TDs excersice common sense? At the Bike, an errant PF muck that lands on the floor gets you a 20 min penalty. Once saw a guy get this penalty on the FT. He wasn't pissed or anything, just mucked 47o a little too hard and it slid onto the floor.

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

Hand is live, action is on the BB. SB gets a penalty should he survive the hand.

I'm guessing you were surprised because the SB's hand was killed.

Results
 

Sorry for the delay in the results. I was playing in a tournament.

My initial reaction was that it was clearly not an angle shoot as the SB had no further action. He clearly thought that the BB's bet had him covered and he was calling all in. If I were the TD, my ruling would have been that it was t175 more to the BB and he could call or fold and the SB would be given a stern warning that the next time he revealed a hand prior to subsequent action being completed he would get a 10 min penalty.

The TD (who, like I said before, is very experienced.... Nick, for all the bay area people) made a ruling that I hadn't seen before. The SB's hand was declared dead and he got his call back (as if he folded to the bet).

I guess this is a fair ruling since, technically, exposing your hand prior to completing the action makes the hand dead. It isn't punitive to either player.
The BB flashed an ace and nobody seemed miffed.

I think that either ruling is fine, but there should be a standard.

Re: Results
 

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I think that either ruling is fine, but there should be a standard.

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I think that's a purpose of the TDA. But of course, people have to willingly comply with those rules. It does get very frustrating to have vastly different rules apply when going from tourney to tourney.

And I've seen Nick make some other rather questionable decisions so this doesn't completely surprise me.

Re: Results
 

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And I've seen Nick make some other rather questionable decisions so this doesn't completely surprise me.


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such as?

Re: Results
 

There was one crazy hand where on the flop the dealer ran over a guy in the hand. A couple of people acted when he finally realized he'd been passed over and said "wait a minute, I haven't acted yet" and put in a bet. It was ruled a call of one of the players who acted out of turn's bet (which I kind of understand). But what surprised me is that he didn't allow him to raise when the action got back to him. Since the amount of chips he put in did not constitute a raise of the flop better, it was deemed a call of that bet. And like yours this definitely wasn't a case of him trying to angle shoot. The action moved very quickly and he spoke up almost immediately (but a little too late).

Re: Results
 

I agree with SossMan about what the ruling should have been (stern warning etc.)

I don't find the actual ruling (hand dead and player gets his chips back) too surprising. It would be ludicrous to rule the hand dead and the chips forfeited.

I like the TDA rule. People expose cards by mistake all the time, and it is far too harsh to kill their hand after they may have invested a huge amount in the pot.

Consider this example: on the turn the pot is headsup and the first player makes a large bet. The second player has a royal flush and says "I call" then turns his hand face up. The second player mistakenly believed that the first player was all-in, but actually the first player had a few chips left. Does anyone really believe that the rules should provide for the royal flush to be ruled a dead hand in this scenario? And if so on what logic?

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

The tournament ruling is an optional 10 minute penalty for exposing cards before the hand is completed.

See Rule7 on this page of Tournament Director's Association:

http://www.pokertda.com/rules4_inter...sults_page.asp

Re: Tournament Ruling: You make the call
 

I emailed Matt Savage with this hand.

I will give Nick a call ............Bad ruling! He should have given the player the chance to call his all in raise, play the hand out and give him a penalty, if he was not already busted.