I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Ok my fingers did not bleed but they got numb.
What I would like you guys to look at:
1) Just what am I up against on the flop the turn and the river.
2) This looks exactly like the tables you guys dream of. How do you survive IDIOTS playing random hands and having some type of genetic need to see the show down? I can play against one but not two or more. I would be better off just transfering them my money and playing mine sweeper.
3) Is there ANY adjustment to make with these play any two players that does not increase variance. I am about to variance my bank roll off.
4) Why when I walk away from a game like that before I tilt do I feel ok and incontrol but when I come here to post a hand that bothers me I just want to vomit. I should feel better trying to come here and post, looking for solutions but when I do I feel like there really is no answer to my problem.

5) <font color="red">Please if you feel the need to comment on my pre flop play do it in a PM. I will answer you and tell you how stupid I was for not folding/raising this hand out of the blind. This hand and my play is not about preflop. </font> If you think that it is please PM me and I will listen.

6) I am having some serious second thoughts about TOP and the worshipping of the 2+2 writers. I know that this is blasphamy but if Slansky and Miller were as good as they say then they would be house hold names like Chan, Unger, Moneyspender sorry Moneymaker, and gag me with a spoon Helmouth. If poker is so good to them then why are they not playing rather than selling books and running a web site? If you want to comment about this I suggest that a PM would be most appropriate.

I know that you are going to say "you should have seen that straight and the flush draw" but the facts are I protected my hand, I represented a higher straight, and another player came along with only a pair. We know that idiots are going to play (myself included) so how is it good advice to bet and lower our standards as the pot fills up? Would we not be cash ahead if we folded each and every hand that has a flush or straight draw on the board. I can not tell when these guys even know they have a hand. I seriously wonder if the winner of this hand even knew what he was drawing to.

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG checks, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5.00 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, CO folds, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (19.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 22.50 BB.
Results in white below:<font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has 8d 7d (a straight, six to ten.)
Hero has 9s 2d (two pairs, nines and twos.)
Button has Th Qh (a pair of tens.)
SB wins 21.50 BB.
</font>

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

wtf

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

the only thing SB did wrong was not 3bet the flop

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

I have a hard time believing any of the 2+2 writers capp that turn.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Preflop is good, Flop is good. Turn raise is good. Don't know why you're capping the turn except to get more dead money in from the Button I guess. River is fine.

Just call the turn 3-bet.

Edit: Wow, SB had a monster draw, I can't imagine why he didn't 3-bet, let you cap, there.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

is this post a joke?

if not, you have several serious misunderstandings about this game.

i don't like your turn cap.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Just fold pre-flop, even though it's your big blind.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Oh my. That's one hell of a rant. When you sat down and wrote this was it your intent to get burnt to a crisp with the flaming that would result? Is everyine having a losing month for November?? I'm feeling kind. I will try to help you, oh troubled soul.



[ QUOTE ]
1) Just what am I up against on the flop the turn and the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

A straight draw, a flush draw, a set, a better two pair, take your pick. In fact the very first hand I suspected before looking at the results was 87.

[ QUOTE ]
2) This looks exactly like the tables you guys dream of. How do you survive IDIOTS playing random hands and having some type of genetic need to see the show down? I can play against one but not two or more. I would be better off just transfering them my money and playing mine sweeper.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I make the standard line of, I suppose you'd prefer to play against good players?

[ QUOTE ]
3) Is there ANY adjustment to make with these play any two players that does not increase variance. I am about to variance my bank roll off.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you are about to tilt your bankroll off.

[ QUOTE ]
4) Why when I walk away from a game like that before I tilt do I feel ok and incontrol but when I come here to post a hand that bothers me I just want to vomit.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you weren't ok and in control. You were obviously tilting. If you play a hand a different way because of an emotional response, that's tilt.

[ QUOTE ]
I should feel better trying to come here and post, looking for solutions but when I do I feel like there really is no answer to my problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bottomset's logo would fit in nicely here.


[ QUOTE ]
5) <font color="red">Please if you feel the need to comment on my pre flop play do it in a PM. I will answer you and tell you how stupid I was for not folding/raising this hand out of the blind. This hand and my play is not about preflop. </font> If you think that it is please PM me and I will listen.

[/ QUOTE ]

You checked in the BB. I fail to understand what the feck you're talking about.


[ QUOTE ]
6) I am having some serious second thoughts about TOP and the worshipping of the 2+2 writers. I know that this is blasphamy but if Slansky and Miller were as good as they say then they would be house hold names like Chan, Unger, Moneyspender sorry Moneymaker, and gag me with a spoon Helmouth. If poker is so good to them then why are they not playing rather than selling books and running a web site? If you want to comment about this I suggest that a PM would be most appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they have a lot more money than Chan at this point.


[ QUOTE ]
I know that you are going to say "you should have seen that straight and the flush draw" but the facts are I protected my hand, I represented a higher straight, and another player came along with only a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact is that you tried to get tricky against straightforward basic level players. So you're angry at them for not recognising your trickiness? As far as a player coming along only with one pair, that's how you make money in the long run.

[ QUOTE ]
We know that idiots are going to play (myself included) so how is it good advice to bet and lower our standards as the pot fills up? Would we not be cash ahead if we folded each and every hand that has a flush or straight draw on the board. I can not tell when these guys even know they have a hand. I seriously wonder if the winner of this hand even knew what he was drawing to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he had a better idea than you.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

The guy completed in the SB with a decent suited connector and flopped and OESFD... he ain't going anywhere.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok my fingers did not bleed but they got numb.
What I would like you guys to look at:
1) Just what am I up against on the flop the turn and the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the donk-3bet on the turn seems to be saying he can beat top pair. I'd say you're probably behind at that point to a set, better two pair or maybe even the str8. You need to slow down on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]

2) This looks exactly like the tables you guys dream of. How do you survive IDIOTS playing random hands and having some type of genetic need to see the show down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Play good hands. Don't be overaggressive with marginal holdings.

[ QUOTE ]

4) Why when I walk away from a game like that before I tilt do I feel ok and incontrol but when I come here to post a hand that bothers me I just want to vomit. I should feel better trying to come here and post, looking for solutions but when I do I feel like there really is no answer to my problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know what to tell you there, it's just the opposite for me. Got to let go, young samurai.

[ QUOTE ]

5) <font color="red">Please if you feel the need to comment on my pre flop play do it in a PM. I will answer you and tell you how stupid I was for not folding/raising this hand out of the blind. This hand and my play is not about preflop. </font> If you think that it is please PM me and I will listen.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? Do you really think someone would tell you to play this any differently preflop? You're in the big blind, there is no bet to you, so why fold? You've got 92o, so why raise? Preflop and flop are fine here.

[ QUOTE ]

6) I am having some serious second thoughts about TOP and the worshipping of the 2+2 writers. I know that this is blasphamy but if Slansky and Miller were as good as they say then they would be house hold names like Chan, Unger, Moneyspender sorry Moneymaker, and gag me with a spoon Helmouth. If poker is so good to them then why are they not playing rather than selling books and running a web site? If you want to comment about this I suggest that a PM would be most appropriate.


[/ QUOTE ]

This text is a waste of space. There may be a forum on these boards that this commentary would belong in, but it's not this one. Try to stick to specific concepts and ideas.

[ QUOTE ]

I know that you are going to say "you should have seen that straight and the flush draw" but the facts are I protected my hand, I represented a higher straight, and another player came along with only a pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is no higher str8 possible than the one SB holds. He has the nuts on the turn. As someone else noted, his mistake was not 3betting the flop (I think he could have made up for that by checkraising the turn, but no matter.)

[ QUOTE ]

We know that idiots are going to play (myself included) so how is it good advice to bet and lower our standards as the pot fills up? Would we not be cash ahead if we folded each and every hand that has a flush or straight draw on the board. I can not tell when these guys even know they have a hand. I seriously wonder if the winner of this hand even knew what he was drawing to.


[/ QUOTE ]

Deep breaths, Buccaneer. Deep breaths.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Dude - that's poker. The pf action indicates no real strength anywhere. The sb flopped an OEStr8F draw. I autobet this every time from early position to build a monster pot! As it stands, he has 9+8-2 outs to what has to be the nuts! your correct raise and all the calls made the pot odds a no brainer for him to CALL, which he did instead of raising again.

He turned the nuts, so he bet again, FULLY expecting you to raise. You did and he correctly re-raises. Your cap is not necessarily a bad play, but I probably would have slowed down. On the river, he has to know he has won, so betting all he can is correct.

BTW I simply LUV suited connectors in the SB. A cheap call and they are very easy to release when you miss.

Seriously, maybe you should consider a little time away from the tables to clear your head. IMHO, you are way off base here with your analysis &amp; comments. Change your perspective &amp; come back and re-read this post.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

[ QUOTE ]
but the facts are I protected my hand, I represented a higher straight, and another player came along with only a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I am missing something, SB had the nut straight. What straight is higher? Why bitch about the dead money coming along for the ride?

[ QUOTE ]

I seriously wonder if the winner of this hand even knew what he was drawing to.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the turn cap suggests he might have.

On the flop, you two were a virtual coin-flip -- I don't get what you are bitching about. SB saved you money by not capping the flop.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Buc,

Whoa. What the hell is this? This isn't even a bad beat, you just lost the hand, because you didn't have a very good hand, yourself; flush and straight possibilities be damned, at some point you've got to think that somebody has a set or a better two pair, at least.

SB completed with a hand that I would have limped with from outside the blinds, under the right circumstances. On the flop he picked up straight, flush, and straight-flush draws; his only "mistake" was not 3-betting with 4 opponents. On the turn he made the nut straight, and it survived the river. At what point should he have laid this down?

Button might have folded to 2 on the flop, but given the table you described I don't think I would have either. I might even have 3-bet with TPGK. He probably "should" have dropped it on the turn when his backdoors didn't improve.

You did what you could with what you had, and it didn't work out. If SB had 3-bet you on the flop, would you have believed him on the turn? If not, why not? If so, why didn't you believe him with he 3-bet the turn? Two pair is normally a strong hand, even bottom-and-middle or bottom-two, but against sustained aggression on a draw-heavy board you've got to be able to admit that there's a chance you're beat and slow down. (FWIW, had I been playing your hand, I would have only saved 1 BB. Had I been playing SB's hand it would have cost you .5 or 1 BB more, if you played the turn the same way when I 3-bet the flop and you capped.)

Keep the faith, grasshopper, and the next time you want to post a hand to bitch about, you might want to find a better one than this.

boz

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

OH and just for future reference, flopping two pair of any kind is great and all, but when it's bottom and middle pair you can't wig out when you lose.

I've gotten really good and flopping bottom two pair from the BB and then having it totally counterfitted on the turn or river.

Example

5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Turn: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

River: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

And the guy holding AT takes the pot and I die a little inside.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

A couple of corrections:

[ QUOTE ]
As it stands, he has 9+8-2 outs to what has to be the nuts!

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop he has the bottom end of the OESD and an 8-high flush draw. Neither of these is to the nuts.

[ QUOTE ]
your correct raise and all the calls made the pot odds a no brainer for him to CALL, which he did instead of raising again.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot odds were right to call, but the number of players that were pot-committed on the flop gave him enough pot EQUITY to make a raise the right play.

[ QUOTE ]
Your cap is not necessarily a bad play, if you hate money

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp...'nuff said.

The rest of your post is spot-on.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of corrections:

[ QUOTE ]
As it stands, he has 9+8-2 outs to what has to be the nuts!

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop he has the bottom end of the OESD and an 8-high flush draw. Neither of these is to the nuts.

[ QUOTE ]
your correct raise and all the calls made the pot odds a no brainer for him to CALL, which he did instead of raising again.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot odds were right to call, but the number of players that were pot-committed on the flop gave him enough pot EQUITY to make a raise the right play.

[ QUOTE ]
Your cap is not necessarily a bad play, if you hate money

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp...'nuff said.

The rest of your post is spot-on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks - I then read the other posts and decided to do the math on the turn cap and quickly found my mistake. With 4 outs to the boat, he could have raised the riv AFTER making 9s or 2s full. 2 for 1 on the turn cap doesn't support the 4 outer.

I did mis-use the term "nuts" as there are only 2 outs to it here, shoulda said "made hand".

As to the pot equity, while I agree with your reasoning, I have a damn hard time 3 betting OOP. I'm going to keep this point on my notepad and see if I'm leaking opportunity here. Thanks again for the corrections.

AB

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

:grunch: Flop looks good. I would have called the reraise on the turn, not cap. River looks good.

SB should have reraised the flop with 4 other ppl and the OESD.

And a quick $0.02 about why sklansky and miller aren't playing poker is that they are probably making more selling books than gambling.

EDIT after reading post: [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

*grunch*

If you can't handle the good beats how are you going to handle a real bad beat? You have bottom 2 pair, your opponents flop an open ended straight draw and top pair good kicker and you got out drawn. Nobody raised preflop, there isn't a higher straight to represent, but it does show that you know there is a straight on the board and you cap with two pair. All your caveats show your major problem; you don't respect your opponents, ever.

Ask yourself this: How would you have played the 78s differently? In this hand you are the fish.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Not for anything, but your post makes me think you were the button in the hand. Seriously. You complain about the SB playing suited connectors, the guy did everything right (or close to it, and played his hand better than you played yours). Bottom two is a good hand, but not great, and when there are tons of draws out there, as well as the possibility that your hand could be counterfeited, you simply misplayed the hand, I mean capping the turn?

Even if you had pocket tens and had flopped the best possible hand, there's close to a 50-50 chance you were going to lose to the OESFD.

You're on tilt by posting this hand and ranting about crap.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Capping the turn is bad IMO, otherwise you played the hand fine.

I would play 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] from the button here let alone the small blind.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Nothing wrong with playing 92 for free, nothing wrong with raising with 2 pair on that flop.

If you don't press your advantages when you get lucky how will you ever make up for getting otherwise good hands cracked?

Had the SB 3bet the flop, the sirens would have went off, and saved you some bets as you could have put him on 9T, or maybe 22, or even 87. In any event the 6 on the turn would have been a very bad card for you had he 3bet.

SB betting then 3 betting the Turn was really good news for you and you could have put him on a 78, 96s or T6s and have been done with the hand.

Fold the turn bet is the conservative and probably correct play. Try not to make lots of bets with marginal hands in small pots.

If you decide to Call the turn bet, do so knowing that you're not getting the right odds, will have Hellfire rain down on you from this board and are dead to a 2 or 9.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Well why didn't you pick up Hellmuth's book how to play poker like the pros. Some say it's the bible of poker.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

[ QUOTE ]
is this post a joke?

if not, you have several serious misunderstandings about this game.

i don't like your turn cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Never mind capping the turn - the more I think about this one, the less I like the first turn raise, and here's why -

SB leads out on a pretty coordinated flop, you raise, and he calls. So far, nothing out of the ordinary - there could be all sorts of draws he's on.

But then a non-diamond, non-paint card hits, and he leads out again - even though you just raised him. He's in effect saying - I know you're going to raise me again, but I don't care! In my experience, people still on a draw on the turn will check to the flop raiser the overwhelming majority of the time. Unless you know him to just donk out a bet on every street because his check button doesn't work, I have to think that he's no longer on a draw here. The only thing you're really beating here is an overplayed AT/KT.

Based on the way he's playing, I'd expect to see a set maybe 70% of the time, a straight probably 20%, and an overplayed TPTK 10%. None of which looks good for your 2-pair.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

This one's easy. Everything about this hand should put up a yellow light (or red for that matter) to you. Everyone limped, so since we don't know what the people who folded had, we can say no one made a really big mistake pre-flop. Personally, I fold the Q 10, and probably raise the suited connectors with so many limpers. After the flop, you had the best hand, but you were not the favorite (if you were, it was barely in your favor). SB was right to bet with an open ended straight flush draw, you were right to raise, Q 10 could justify a call by putting you both on a straight or flush draw, but he really should have folded to a bet and raise, the rest...who knows. But with 5 people in this pot, you have to figure someone is on a open-ended or flush draw. HAVE TO. I think this is your mistake. When the 6 comes, and a caller becomes a raiser....odds are he just hit. At these limits, there aren't a lot of people who know how to represent hands. They telegraph their hands to you, as did SB in this instance. Since the pot was getting large for these limits, I can justify you calling or even raising, but you had to do so with the knowledge that you were probably behind. You're hoping for a miracle 9 or 2 and a 5'th street cap. You even had pot odds to call the final bet, even though by now you should suspect you've lost. So, the only mistakes that I can see that you made are raising the 3-bet (even though it can be justified, it's still not a good idea) and labeling SB an idiot. Of course he knew what he was drawing for. Why else is he betting on his draw, calling your raise (but not re-raising) and then 3-betting when he hits. To me, he played the hand just right. He was able to limp in with a drawing hand, get a good flop, and hit his draw. He really didn't do anything wrong at all. The Q 10, yeah, an idiot. SB, I'd say he simply outplayed you on that hand. We all get outplayed more often than we'd like to admit it. It's just part of the game. Get used to it and let it go instead of venting on here to try to get somebody to make you feel better about your mistake. I'm not trying to be rude, that's simply a lesson everyone has to learn at some point if they want to play cards for money.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

two pair isn't a very good hand on coordinated boards when people go nuts.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

Not sure if I should respond seriously to this post, as it seems to be a joke post:

[ QUOTE ]
5) <font color="red">Please if you feel the need to comment on my pre flop play do it in a PM. I will answer you and tell you how stupid I was for not folding/raising this hand out of the blind. This hand and my play is not about preflop. </font> If you think that it is please PM me and I will listen.

?? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

If your comments about the winner are geniune, then I think you have some re-reading to do. I think his big mistake was not putting more bets in on the flop.

The turn cap from you was way out of line.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

I'll just pluck out a nugget, here:

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I fold the Q 10, and probably raise the suited connectors with so many limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're going to fold QTs on the Button in an unraised pot, and raise 87s in the SB? Not for nothin' (and I certainly wouldn't have done it, but folding is a bigger mistake, IMO), but if button had raised preflop, this hand probably wouldn't have seen the turn.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

I suspect OP was a joke post.

If it wasn't: SB played correctly*. You didn't. Period. Re-read SSHE and see if you can find where it tells you to "represent" anything, much less a non-existent higher straight. (Hint: you'll be looking for a long time.)

If it was: haw haw, pwn pwn, you are soooo cool.







Edit: *SB should have reraised the flop, costing you even more money.

Re: I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb
 

This discussion has run its course (and then some!), in my opinion. Every possible microcosm of value has been extracted from what was originally a borderline rant/bad beat/joke post. I'm locking the thread.

If anyone disagrees or wants to continue discussing this, please PM me.