10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

so i'm deep stacked... like 4.7k... i get dealt AA on the button after 4 limpers or so. i made it 150 but i immediately hated my play. 4 people called and the pot was already 750 so i lost 2000 to 55 on a T53 two tone flop... i told myself i would fold if big stacks give me significant action and if anyone with 2k or less does i will go all in... this is such a bad situation though.

how do we combat this?

i was thinking raising to 60 hoping someone with a mediocre hand smells weakness and tries to pick up dead money, and if no one does just playing very weakly...

the other option is raising to 300 but that sucks too.

any takers on this one?

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

Just minraise. Great image play.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

Limp behind...for deception purposes!

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

You're being results oriented here, usually you get 1-2 callers with the raise you made which is ideal. Also, what was the action with 55? I think that is a relevant question here, and i wouldnt sweat this too much. Making it 300 is dumb, making it 60 is dumber, and you made it a good amount. He flopped a set, you are going to lose lots of money here no matter what.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

problem is i am deep and a pocket pair is priced in preflop and guaranteed to make a lot of money. i'm not results oriented at all, i don't think... the action in the hand was everyone checks i bet pot, he goes all in which was basically a minraise more, i sigh and call.

thing is, SB instacalls me... this leads me to think if he has any sort of hand he would h ave repopped to isolate. that was results oriented but it sure got me thinking.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

small raise with so many limpers is not weakness no way in hell.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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thing is, SB instacalls me... this leads me to think if he has any sort of hand he would h ave repopped to isolate. that was results oriented but it sure got me thinking.

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Just for the record, the one person I would really watch out for in this sort of hand is the SB. He's the only one who called after seeing such a monster raise from a deepstack, so he has to have the sort of hand that will be willing to commit a ton of chips with postflop. I'm thinking that's a PP or SC almost always, and this is not a great flop for SC type hands, so I would really not be so eager to get it all in against him (I dunno, why bet pot on this flop anyway).

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

i potted the flop because i am a scared little bitch. i had two people who had me covered and i was going to fold to their reraise. i was not, however, going to let them reraise me with a worse hand, and i thought the pot bet accomplished that.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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i potted the flop because i am a (1)scared (2)little (3)bitch.

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2 of those adjectives seem right
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i had two people who had me covered and i was going to fold to their reraise. i was not, however, going to let them reraise me with a worse hand, and i thought the pot bet accomplished that.

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meh. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

I can't think of any other way but to pop limpers with wider range of hands in position

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

i do that too. it just doesn't help me even a little in this particular hand.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

all-in preflop

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

i still dont think thats a great reason to pot the flop, because i just dont think this is a great flop to cbet on and not really one you need to pot, even with so many callers. hopefully they will likely be less likely to pull a move.

alternatively, you could even check the flop. protect your stack, but you might be risking the pot.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

people suck at live poker.. making it 300 str8 is NOT dumb

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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people suck at live poker.. making it 300 str8 is NOT dumb

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Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

good thing this was on party poker then. just assume that if i don't include any reads...

and if i ever include "because i'm a scared little bitch" in a live hand, shoot me now.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

I think betting 500 on the flop conveys enough strength, and the person who wants to bluff raise you with a worse hand here, well, you'll be getting his money later anyway.

Obviously, a premo pair could come from the SB, but I think they are much more likely to be calling you down.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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I think betting 500 on the flop conveys enough strength

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this is playing scared
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and the person who wants to bluff raise you with a worse hand here, well, you'll be getting his money later anyway.


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so if a guy with a pair of 5's is feeling saucy and wants to semi-bluff at duck he still wins this pot. i don't understand your reasoning. maybe pop it big in a MTT but this is deep stack cash game poker, duck is better than that.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

Betting 150 pf, then betting 2/3 pot on the flop is playing scared? You think you're going to be semi-bluffed a much larger % of the time if she bets 500 instead of 750? (Not being condescending, honest question... fwiw, duck believes this is true).

Also, I don't understand the second part of your post.

Edit: I think I'm just really wrong here.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

[ QUOTE ]
Betting 150 pf, then betting 2/3 pot on the flop is playing scared? You think you're going to be semi-bluffed a much larger % of the time if she bets 500 instead of 750? (Not being condescending, honest question... fwiw, duck believes this is true).

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I agree with you. 500 and 750 are both big bets which show great strength. You save 250 by betting 2/3 pot when you're behind because I don't think your hand can stand to call a check/raise. Given that any c/raise is going to be hard to fold to given the pot-size, I would not call a c/r of 500 nor of 750 and I think the 250 you save is worth SLIGHTLY bumping up the chance of a bluff.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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Betting 150 pf, then betting 2/3 pot on the flop is playing scared?

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its late and i am tired, i guess i read your post wrong, if i did i apologize. i thought you said to raise preflop to 500? i guess not. sorry.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

The only reason I'm starting to disagree with myself is this...

1. Duck is smart and aggressive, limpers she'll raise a wide range.

2. So we don't necessarily give her credit yet. We have JJ-AA in the SB and call to see the action behind us and see a flop.

3. I don't think JJ-AA check here on the flop so I'm cutting off my logic mid thought. But 'if' it did, and duck bets after everyone checks, regardless of the amount how often do we have to give this credit. Wouldn't she be doing this with any two cards because of all of the pf and flop weakness from everyone else?


I'm confusing myself. And this now has entirely no purpose except to show how little I know. Blah. Frangelico and Starbucks frappuchino is delicious. That much I do know.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

Wow, you scared me.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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Wow, you scared me.



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yeah you scared me too.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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The only reason I'm starting to disagree with myself is this...

1. Duck is smart and aggressive, limpers she'll raise a wide range.

2. So we don't necessarily give her credit yet. We have JJ-AA in the SB and call to see the action behind us and see a flop.

3. I don't think JJ-AA here so I'm cutting off my logic mid thought. But 'if' it did, and duck bets after everyone checks, regardless of the amount how often do we have to give this credit. Wouldn't she be doing this with any two cards because of all of the pf and flop weakness?


I'm confusing myself. And this now has entirely no purpose except to show how little I know. Blah. Frangelico and Starbucks frappuchino is delicious. That much I do know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we can discount QQ and KK for the most part because of all the limping. Most players who limp JJ do so because they're not looking to play big pots with a hand that always seems to end up second best in big pots, so I don't think we have to worry too much about a c/r all-in being JJ.

As for the blinds, if they think duck is stealing on the button, they would still reraise QQ and KK to get it heads up (all the limpers and lack of position seem to dictate that). JJ probably doesn't reriase but the above comments stlil apply.

Obviously, it's going out on a limb saying 5 different players are all playing standard and sometimes somebody probably is overplaying JJ or somebody decided to limp QQ and thinks they're trapping duck. I would say that these are the exception cases and calling on the off-chance that they obtain is a typical example of chip-spewing through construction of unlikely scenarios in which one is ahead.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I'm starting to disagree with myself is this...

1. Duck is smart and aggressive, limpers she'll raise a wide range.

2. So we don't necessarily give her credit yet. We have JJ-AA in the SB and call to see the action behind us and see a flop.

3. I don't think JJ-AA check here on the flop so I'm cutting off my logic mid thought. But 'if' it did, and duck bets after everyone checks, regardless of the amount how often do we have to give this credit. Wouldn't she be doing this with any two cards because of all of the pf and flop weakness?


I'm confusing myself. And this now has entirely no purpose except to show how little I know. Blah. Frangelico and Starbucks frappuchino is delicious. That much I do know.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way does JJ-AA smooth call. Maaaybe JJ but then I think he's playing for set value. Think of it this way... SB knows that a lot of people limped, and big stack raises. A smooth call here lets a lot of other people call, all of whom would have increasingly better relative position and increasingly better pot odds, and better chance to stack Duck. There is no way SB is gonna slowplay here, with worst absolute and relative position and with a bunch of big stacks still left to act.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

This is kind of an unrelated question, and I don't want to thread jack, but this seems like it would be a great place to make a squueze play.

I also think I would personally call with JJ and QQ for set value here, but I'm sensing that this is very wrong. KK and AA I reraise unless villain is abnormally crazy postflop.

What incongruent thinking I have.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

if you are suggesting a fold to the minraise all in i think that's a bad idea... fwiw my notes on that player said will c/r with top pair. obviously this situation is much different but that was my note.

as for not betting pot, i really do think it makes a huge difference when your stacks are so deep. if i bet 500, i really think a diamond draw can come over the top pretty easily. and suited cards are definitely possibilities as the 3-5th in such a big pot so deep stacked.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

Check-raise semi-bluffing with a field of 5? I just don't see how so many people think this is likely.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

Why don't you just limp preflop? Cause you're not a scared little bitch, that's why. If this was really deep stacked, you could get away from this hand on a ragged flop, but as it is, you're losing money here if someone with 100 BB flops a set. That's the way poker is.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

from what i've seen at 5/10 and up it is weakness. Lower than that could be either or, and 100 NL and below it is usually strength.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

Limping behind preflop is actually sweet as hell when one of the blinds raises.. gives me a hard on just thinkin about it

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

Go all-in and be content to either win the antes and the limped bets or to face down one person -- hopefully, the 55 holder is not one of the tall stacks. You can never expect a better chance to get all your money in the pot with the best hand.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

Why not over bet it pre flop. Make it 1K to go. It reaks of a bluff since your deep stacked and perhaps a weaker hand pushes. If your going to raise 300 is the minimum amount. You want to get this heads up....

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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. It reaks of a bluff

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BWAHAHAHAAAAAAGUHUI

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

I don't pretend to understand the nuances of play at this level (an order of magnitude over my current limits), but there seems to be two solutions to this question:

Make a signifigant enough raise to push out small pairs (no implied odds to catch their set)

Limp in on the button and be prepared to release your hand if there is big action on a raggedy-ass flop...

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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Make it 1K to go. It reaks

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OK. I'm with you so far.


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of a bluff

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Sh-t, you lost me.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Make it 1K to go. It reaks

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OK. I'm with you so far.


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of a bluff

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Sh-t, you lost me.

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well played.

Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

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Limping behind preflop is actually sweet as hell when one of the blinds raises.. gives me a hard on just thinkin about it

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Re: 10/20 AA on the button after everyone and their mother limps in
 

Depending on your hand range, you are letting a good player play his hand perfectly with that line.