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11-29-2005 05:58 PM

getting pushed out on the river
 
hi, i've been lurking around the forums for about a month now. i'm learning everyday. you guys are great.

time for my first post and first hand. don't have that much of a read, but mp3 was tearing apart the table, playing alot of hands, raising about every 10th pf, post flop semi-aggressive. he seems to be on a very lucky day. anyways, here's the hand:

i think that one of my many leaks is getting pushed out at the river. here is a hand. please comment on the river, but also on the other streets.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button folds.

River: (7.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

i normally would not have called here, but this time i tried to. what do you think?

11-29-2005 06:01 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
I like the call. If for nothing else you can note how he played the hand for future reference.

MrWookie47 11-29-2005 06:07 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
Welcome to the forums. This pot is large enough for me to call. I fully expect to see the fourth A about 50% of the time, and KK/QQ 40% of the time.

silly_monkey 11-29-2005 06:09 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
I think you should take a WA/WB line here. C/C flop, C/C turn, B/F river. Either you are ahead and he is drawing thin, or you are drawing dead. If his pfr is 10 percent, I think you can probably put him on 99-KK, A10-AKs, AQo and maybe AJo, KQs, and maybe a few other hands. You are drawing dead to the vast majority of these hands.

MrWookie47 11-29-2005 06:10 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
Hero is never WA here. Villain has at least 6 outs virtually every time. He might be WB, though.

11-29-2005 06:11 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
*** grunch ***

I probably re-raise the river here. It looks like he might be bluffing. The only 2 hands you have to worry about are a higher pocket pair or if he has is a 6. Few people at this level can resist the urge to raise a full house on the flop. I think you are ahead here more often or not.

I think it would take a ton of restraint for him to wait until the river to raise you. To me, it looks like a random bluff attempt and I squeeze him for it.

silly_monkey 11-29-2005 06:12 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hero is never WA here. Villain has at least 6 outs virtually every time. He might be WB, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess WA is villan has 3 outs or fewer? What line do you take then?

MrWookie47 11-29-2005 06:16 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
WA is typically when your opponent has 3 outs or fewer, yes. Some might draw the line at 4, but any more starts to become significant.

As for a line, I'm not sure I like the flop donk, but a c/r could be very expensive. It partially depends on my read of the villain. Will he raise me with a worse hand on the flop? Does he like to slowplay? Does he take free cards? I'd consider c/c on the flop, donk the turn to prevent him taking a free card w/ KQ.

11-29-2005 06:18 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
normally, i fold here. i put him on Ax ot high PP.

MrWookie47 11-29-2005 06:19 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
Oh, yeah, no way am I 3betting that river.

sean c 11-29-2005 06:19 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
[ QUOTE ]
WA is typically when your opponent has 3 outs or fewer, yes. Some might draw the line at 4, but any more starts to become significant.

As for a line, I'm not sure I like the flop donk, but a c/r could be very expensive. It partially depends on my read of the villain. Will he raise me with a worse hand on the flop? Does he like to slowplay? Does he take free cards? I'd consider c/c on the flop, donk the turn to prevent him taking a free card w/ KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking the same thing check/call bet. As played if your intent on showing down i would check/call to induce a bluff betting has little to no value.

DCWildcat 11-29-2005 06:20 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
[ QUOTE ]
normally, i fold here. i put him on Ax ot high PP.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be a bad move. Bet/folding the river often at .1/.2 is yuuucky.

Other than that, NH, esp. good bet on the flop.

11-29-2005 06:25 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
as said, i fold here often. if the river would have been higher than 5, i would have folded. a leak?

11-29-2005 06:31 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
[ QUOTE ]
as said, i fold here often. if the river would have been higher than 5, i would have folded. a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you reason that way, you shouldn't bet the turn since if he call the flop bet (nice bet btw) he will call the turn bet too , especially at these stakes. The only card that comes on the river that I would imagine folding to would be a K or Q. An queen is a 50/50 situation and depends on my reads and gut feeling. Since honestly, do you imagine him sitting on a 7,8,9 or T? I have a hard time seeing him playing one of those cards this way unless it's a pp and then we are already beaten.

I check/call the turn and river unless river is a K or Q in which case I have to re-think.

beset7 11-29-2005 06:39 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
If he's aggressive I check call the river so he bluffs and I save a bet if I'm screwed. Otherwise I think I bet/call as well.

11-29-2005 06:44 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
thanks for all the comments.

11-29-2005 07:33 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
You flopped a FH. If you were beat villain probably would have raised on the turn. Call the river.

11-29-2005 11:42 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
[ QUOTE ]
*** grunch ***

I probably re-raise the river here. It looks like he might be bluffing. The only 2 hands you have to worry about are a higher pocket pair or if he has is a 6. Few people at this level can resist the urge to raise a full house on the flop. I think you are ahead here more often or not.

I think it would take a ton of restraint for him to wait until the river to raise you. To me, it looks like a random bluff attempt and I squeeze him for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If his raise is a pure bluff, he would surely fold to a rr. If he isn't bluffing, Hero will face a 4-bet. We have nothing to gain by raising a bluffer on the river.

crownjules 11-29-2005 11:51 PM

Re: getting pushed out on the river
 
[ QUOTE ]
You flopped a FH. If you were beat villain probably would have raised on the turn. Call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would they?

Trip Aces out makes it very unlikely someone holds the last Ace. If you had KK/QQ and someone bet into you, wouldn't you want to smooth call with the (likely) best hand. This will provide some incentive for the bettor to continue his aggression and bet the turn again. The second effect is that you may get callers with you who will make second/third/etc best hands.

I'd probably wait until the river to pop that hand with KK/QQ.

EDIT: It would be risky with QQ since you would hate to see a K, but this definitely applies to KK.


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