J6s -- play along with me
 

This used to be a full 9/18 game but now it's 5-handed. The 5 players are like so:

SB - me
BB - unknown, just came over from a broken game, looks stereotypically aggressive
EP - maniac LAG
MP - retarded fish
LP - retarded fish

OK, so EP open-raises because he has 2 cards. MP cold-calls. LP folds. I'm in the SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

I... <font color="white">obviously I didn't fold, because this thread would be stupid if I did </font>

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

Fold

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

Not sure what the blind structure is, but with a 2/3 small blind structure you would probably need a couple more cold-callers to make this a reasonable call. Not sure though....


but this is a fold.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

Should have folded.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

In the 1/3 structure, I nittily fold here, even against that dreamy table. But I'm guessing you didn't.... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

Fold.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

i'm going against the grain with a fold here.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

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Fold.

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Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

fold



tex

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

THREEBET AND FIVEBET IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

In the sb I fold. If it's 2/3 blind structure I don't think it's that big of a mistake to call if you feel you can get paid off huge with a made hand. Or is it not?

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

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In the sb I fold. If it's 2/3 blind structure I don't think it's that big of a mistake to call if you feel you can get paid off huge with a made hand. Or is it not?

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First to act after the flop with a "stereotypically aggressive" BB and a "maniac LAG" on your left? I think it is that big of a mistake.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

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In the sb I fold. If it's 2/3 blind structure I don't think it's that big of a mistake to call if you feel you can get paid off huge with a made hand. Or is it not?

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First to act after the flop with a "stereotypically aggressive" BB and a "maniac LAG" on your left? I think it is that big of a mistake.

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Ok I see your point. Folding is more than right.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

Easy fold, right? Let's see - EP has essentially a random hand, MP didn't raise (though that may not mean much for a fish), figure BB comes along with an OK hand. In a 2/3 blind structure, you're getting 5:1. Let's assume the following:

EP - any two
MP - any pair, any Ace, any 2 broadway, any K/Q/J suited (this may be too narrow a range, but should be close)
you - J6 spades
BB - any pair, any Ace, any 2 broadway, any connector, any suited connector or 1-gapper, K9s, Q9s

Per PokerStove, you have about 22% equity which argues strongly for a call, especially since you can outplay 'em post flop. Certainly, for your last chips you need to call. Yes, you are out of position but might be able to use it to your advantage. If you hit the flop, bet out and make the BB worry about being raised by the maniac; make MP face 2 cold.

It . . . could . . . work! (But I'd probably fold anyway)

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

Hi Joker,
[ QUOTE ]
BB - unknown, just came over from a broken game, looks stereotypically aggressive

[/ QUOTE ]Hmm...I'm going with an Asian Male, mid-forties, hasn't washed his hair for two days, drinking a Bud Light?

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

It's awfully hard for me to play along postflop when my cards are in the muck, but I'll do what I can.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

At the risk of persisting my nit image, I'd fold here.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

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At the risk of persisting my nit image, I'd fold here.

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Nit.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

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It's awfully hard for me to play along postflop when my cards are in the muck, but I'll do what I can.

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ni han ni hand

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

i ditch this preflop pretty easily.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

This is a fold but let's move on and say you called, now what?

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

Fold.

I can maybe see an argument for calling if you are on the button, but I can't imagine your equity is large enough to warrant a call OOP here with a cold-caller having position on you.

More Preflop
 

Yep. I folded. Thanks for confirming, guys.




<font color="white"> . </font>



No, really. OK, so I guess I felt like gambooling it up or whatever, and I talked myself into the fact that 5:1 probably am not a huge EV dog here to make a call, and if I hit a good hand, these guys will pay me off and then some.

So I called.

BB now 3-bets, and EP caps. MP cold-calls again. Now I'm getting 7:1, but I still have J6s in the small blind and at least one guy likes his hand.

I...

Re: More Preflop
 

hey joker... with 7:1 it is a call. You make the flush here ~8:1, and even thou its the non nut youll be paid off plenty of times when you hit because c/ring will be like eating cake.

i do not call the 2 bet thou, so what i wrote above should never apply.

interesting how poker works [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

On the bandwagon,,,,not even close IMO

Hell With This, etc.
 

You know what, this hand sucks and the more I think about it, the less interesting the post-flop decisions are. I guess I was really mostly curious about preflop, to see if the reads change anyone's action from the standard fold to a call. But no, being OOP sucks and expecting a lot of action sucks. 8/10 times I make this fold and don't think twice, but I called and ended up getting trapped in a hand with a draw.

Here's the flop action, because I think it's also potentially debatable:

So I called PF the second time getting 7:1, and 4 of us saw the flop for 16sb.

Flop comes 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. A gutshot and backdoor flush. I check, BB checks, EP bets, MP calls, I call (I don't think anyone can argue for a fold getting 18:1, and a raise seems really spewy, so this decision appears obvious). BB now checkraises, and EP 3-bets, and MP cold-calls again.

Now what? I'm getting 25:2 but not closing the action. If it gets capped I'm getting 29:3 with the slight chance that someone else has a 6 and a 5 only gives me a chop (but a spade gives me another draw). This is a call, right?

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

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THREEBET AND FIVEBET IF GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY.

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This made my day. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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First to act after the flop with a "stereotypically aggressive" BB and a "maniac LAG" on your left? I think it is that big of a mistake.

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Isn't this better than having them on your right? The OP has the worst absolute position, but he has great relative position to the aggressors.

Of course, I fold this without a 2nd thought. Even with a 2/3 blind structure, I'd fold. Actually, I'd probably fold even if I were in the BB closing the action.

One thing I'd like to point out, is that getting 9:1 in the SB in an unraised pot is different than getting 9:1 in the BB in a raised pot. Even though your immediate pot odds are the same in both situations, your implied odds are effectively cut in half because the bet size does not increase with the bets.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

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First to act after the flop with a "stereotypically aggressive" BB and a "maniac LAG" on your left? I think it is that big of a mistake.

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Isn't this better than having them on your right? The OP has the worst absolute position, but he has great relative position to the aggressors.

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No. I always try to keep the maniacs on my right. Being in position against these guys is a pretty big equalizer against their unpredictability. Sure, you will get checkraised, but playing a maniac is tough either way and I don't think it outweighs the benefits of being last to act.

Re: Hell With This, etc.
 

You can expect to win a few BB's when a 5 comes, so that makes it a clear call.

Re: sults
 

Belloc wanted results so in case anybody else does, I'll just post these and then let this horrible hand die.

I called the flop 3-bet, BB capped it, we all called, then I called the 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] turn bet by EP, but then BB checkraised again, and I had odds to call again so I paid 2 BBs to see a brick river which checked around.

BB had AA, EP had 84o and dragged a gargantuan pot.

But hey! I was drawing live to 4 clean outs the whole time! Turns out every postflop call was mathematically mandated, but the very first PF call was ill-advised. Sigh.

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

I was also confused by the first comments about position, relative to the aggressives...

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First to act after the flop with a "stereotypically aggressive" BB and a "maniac LAG" on your left? I think it is that big of a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't this better than having them on your right? The OP has the worst absolute position, but he has great relative position to the aggressors.

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No. I always try to keep the maniacs on my right. Being in position against these guys is a pretty big equalizer against their unpredictability. Sure, you will get checkraised, but playing a maniac is tough either way and I don't think it outweighs the benefits of being last to act.

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First, do we call "stereotypical aggressors" and "maniac LAGs" unpredictable?

Second, maybe in general you prefer to have position on them, but for this particular hand it seems to me you want them on the left. You are either going to use them to protect a weak made hand, or use them to trap if you really hit.

I am not saying to call preflop here, but I thought relative position was in the "Pro's" column here, not the "Con's" column. Could anyone please elaborate?

alThor

Re: J6s -- play along with me
 

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Jennet
Female Donkey


Reged: 03/24/04
Posts: 7237
Loc: make it stop

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wtf