AKs cripples me
 

Early in a live tournament. Blinds are 50/100 and my stack ~5k which is average.

I get dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in EP. I Raise to 400. One shortstacked MP player calls and the BB calls. BB has played very loose and has a stack significantly taller than mine.

Flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Pot 1250)

BB checks. I bet 1000. MP player raises all-in for 2150 or so. BB folds. Probably ~7 outs (including the backdoor flush draw) and if I'm lucky I might even be ahead to some other random overcards. I get 4:1 pot odds so I call.

He shows 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. No help on turn or river and I'm crippled down to ~2.5k.

This situation happens to me every now and then. I get a good hand like AK or AQ, miss the flop and consequently lose a big part of my stack. How should I have played this?

Re: AKs cripples me
 

I probably woulda played it the exact same way ... however I have not had a winning month yet so maybee I am not the best person to give advice [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: AKs cripples me
 

Generally you want to make a continuation bet of about 1/2 the pot on the flop. You bet about 5/6 of it. The problem with this is that in a situation like this or a similar situation where your opponent has even more chips your not allowing yourself to get away from the hand.

After the flop bet you had the right price to call but your flop bet is too big.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

Advice from anyone is welcome, even losing players. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

The problem is that I think I might have played this hand correctly, still I hate when it costs me half my stack this early in the tournament. Maybe the continuation bet on the flop was stupid, I don't know. I just thought it was possible I had the best hand at the moment and didn't want to give other overcard hands any free chances to beat me or bluff me out of the pot.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

Couple of things to think about:

1) It's okay to go broke with AK. You basically lost a coin flip, there are worse ways to bust out.

2) If you raise with AK and get two callers, it is profitable to only fire again if you hit. I'm not saying that's necessarily the best line, but it is +EV.

3) I believe it was CSC who pointed out that check-raising all-in with AK in a spot like this can yield some increased fold equity, as your opponents may put you on a big pair. My gut tells me that wouldn't have mattered here, though, as this guy was going to get it in with his 77. Checking and folding to a large bet or calling a small one hoping to hit one of 15 cards (club, A, or K) on the turn wouldn't be bad either.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Generally you want to make a continuation bet of about 1/2 the pot on the flop. You bet about 5/6 of it. The problem with this is that in a situation like this or a similar situation where your opponent has even more chips your not allowing yourself to get away from the hand.

After the flop bet you had the right price to call but your flop bet is too big.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be picky, the CB was actually 4/5 of the pot. I made this bet on purpose because I thought a normal sized CB stood too good a chance of being called, especially by the BB. I also wanted the player behind me to know that I had a good hand so he wouldn't try any kind of fancy all-in raise with some other overcards.

In case I had made my CB ~600 and the player behind moved all-in, I would have to pay 1550 more to win 4000. That is less than 3:1 pot odds and I would have a much more difficult call of his raise. Right or wrong?

Re: AKs cripples me
 

[ QUOTE ]
Couple of things to think about:

1) It's okay to go broke with AK. You basically lost a coin flip, there are worse ways to bust out.

2) If you raise with AK and get two callers, it is profitable to only fire again if you hit. I'm not saying that's necessarily the best line, but it is +EV.

3) I believe it was CSC who pointed out that check-raising all-in with AK in a spot like this can yield some increased fold equity, as your opponents may put you on a big pair. My gut tells me that wouldn't have mattered here, though, as this guy was going to get it in with his 77. Checking and folding to a large bet or calling a small one hoping to hit one of 15 cards (club, A, or K) on the turn wouldn't be bad either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think check-folding would have been the best play, since I probably wouldn't have got the turn card cheap enough to call (you noticed I had only the backdoor flush draw, right?). That would have cost me only 400 instead of 2500 like it did now, and I could just have played on in my normal pace not being shortstacked. But... The BB's check and the texture of the flop just made a continuation bet too tempting...

Re: AKs cripples me
 

[ QUOTE ]
In case I had made my CB ~600 and the player behind moved all-in, I would have to pay 1550 more to win 4000. That is less than 3:1 pot odds and I would have a much more difficult call of his raise. Right or wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats right. You say it like it is a bad thing though, it's not. You are giving yourself a chance to get away from the hand if you feel you are behind. You can still make the call if you think he is full of it.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think check-folding would have been the best play, since I probably wouldn't have got the turn card cheap enough to call (you noticed I had only the backdoor flush draw, right?).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the idea would be to pick up a flush draw on the turn and then semi-bluff all in (check-raising all-in would be ideal, but it doesn't seem like stacks are deep enough for that). Don't get me wrong, you will still be all-in with a dog a lot of the time, but this will give you at least some fold equity that you don't have on the flop. Even better, your check call might confuse him into checking behind. This also lets him bluff at you with three outs if he's got AQ, AJ, KQ, etc.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

If the plan is to pick up a flushdraw on the turn, why not change the plan to turning an ace or a king instead?

Re: AKs cripples me
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In case I had made my CB ~600 and the player behind moved all-in, I would have to pay 1550 more to win 4000. That is less than 3:1 pot odds and I would have a much more difficult call of his raise. Right or wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats right. You say it like it is a bad thing though, it's not. You are giving yourself a chance to get away from the hand if you feel you are behind. You can still make the call if you think he is full of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but I think it will also be very difficult to know if he is full of it, and that will also make my play much harder since I'm not getting very good odds. Also, if the player behind be would have mucked, the BB would probably have called. I'm not saying I did the right thing, just explaining my way of thinking at the time I made the play.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the plan is to pick up a flushdraw on the turn, why not change the plan to turning an ace or a king instead?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Checking and folding to a large bet or calling a small one hoping to hit one of 15 cards (club, A, or K) on the turn wouldn't be bad either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: AKs cripples me
 

you have to be able to get away from hands when you miss the flop. going broke with AK as another poster suggested is okay preflop, but it would take some awfully good reads if you miss the flop completely.

nothing wrong with CB of about 1/2 the pot. easy to get away from your hand then and it allows for a possible bluff/steal on turn or river.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

[ QUOTE ]

Well, the idea would be to pick up a flush draw on the turn and then semi-bluff all in (check-raising all-in would be ideal, but it doesn't seem like stacks are deep enough for that).

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Especially his stack is no way near deep enough to plan for a semi-bluff on the turn.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

[ QUOTE ]
you have to be able to get away from hands when you miss the flop. going broke with AK as another poster suggested is okay preflop, but it would take some awfully good reads if you miss the flop completely.


[/ QUOTE ]
Agree.

[ QUOTE ]

nothing wrong with CB of about 1/2 the pot. easy to get away from your hand then and it allows for a possible bluff/steal on turn or river.

[/ QUOTE ]
In this case I think 1/2 pot sized CB would have been wrong, with an exceptionally great chance of being called or raised. I think any CB, regardless size, was wrong. I should have just checked, hoping for a free (or very cheap) turn card.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

can definitely see an argument for checking, I think CB of 1/2 is still the right play. it's not always about the hand your in, but sets up for future hands as well that you actually hit. Say you lay this one down to a reraise or the others even fold. Next time on a made hand other players see 1/2 pot sized bet and think you are CBing again and you now have established a trap type play. It is not always ONLY about the current hand you are in.

As i said, i can still see an argument for checking. So much of these cases are read dependent and texture of the flop dependent.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

Checking is definitely an option here but if you put in a 1/2 pot CB bet I think you take it down enough to make it +EV. A small stack isn't going to lay down mid pairs here, but the size of the CB doesn't make a difference. Also this sets up your big hands later on.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

i would have bet more like 850 on the flop and wind up calling the shorty's push anyway.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

Your mistake is the flop 1000 bet. You're not usually going to force a PP > 66 to fold. And you're not going to force a 6 to fold. There's no straight or flush draws, so there is no need to take the pot down now.

In this situation, I bet small, maybe 400/500. This bet get everyone that has nothing out, and maybe even keep AQ calling down (which is good for you). A pocket pair higher than 66 will likely raise to try to take the pot down and you can safely fold without damaging your chip stack.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

Betting 500 is only good if you sometimes do the same with AA-QQ there.

Also, you aren't 'crippled' when you have 20 BB.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

1) AK vs. 77 on a 266 flop is not a coin flip. You have approximately a 23% chance with AK after missing the flop.

2) I may be wrong, because I don't read poker books, but checking this flop and folding to a small bet from something like AQ is also wrong (as is calling that bet with nothing). I suggest betting small to find out where you stand.

3) I agree, push semi-bluffing early in the tourney is not a good idea.

Re: AKs cripples me
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that I think I might have played this hand correctly,

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, that is the problem! You really did not play the hand correctly. You overbet the flop, causing you to make the pot too big when you were drastically behind. The key to not going broke on AKs is knowing when to get away from it. With flops like this, you want to get away from it if you are beat. If you CB for ~1/2 the pot and he pushes, now you can get away from the hand with most of your stack. But, by betting as much as you did, you ate up a bigger chunk, making it less to call his bet, giving you better pot odds, all the while - you were behind! Not a good thing!! In other words, you created a situation, where you were forced to call, even though you were way behind. Don't do that! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]
I just thought it was possible I had the best hand at the moment and didn't want to give other overcard hands any free chances to beat me or bluff me out of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This one has me puzzled -- You would rather CALL his all in bet now, so that he will not be able to bluff you off later?? That ain't winning poker. Whether you call off your chips with a losing hand, or get bluffed off your chips with a winning hand, makes no differnce, you still got no chips!! And for the record, I would much rather lose chips to a bluff, then call them off to a better hand.

[ QUOTE ]
1) It's okay to go broke with AK. You basically lost a coin flip, there are worse ways to bust out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong - it is not a coin flip AFTER the flop. All the money went in, after the flop, which makes this far from a coin flip. Had the money gone in preflop, then it would have been a coin toss. I think at this point, our hereo is a 4 to 1 dog?? Math guys correct me please...


All of this to say - you should have CBed for 1/2 the pot -OR- pushed all in on the flop. If you were trying to push him off his hand, and would call his all in anyway, then by god push them in the pot and MAKE HIM MAKE THE TOUGH DECISION. Instead, he made you make the tought decision. Make sense?

Re: AKs cripples me
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) AK vs. 77 on a 266 flop is not a coin flip. You have approximately a 23% chance with AK after missing the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I said he 'basically' lost a coin flip, ie he had AK vs. 77 before the flop, took a reasonable line on the flop (continuation betting and calling a push when pot-committed with overs and a back-door draw), and ended up losing.

[ QUOTE ]

2) I may be wrong, because I don't read poker books, but checking this flop and folding to a small bet from something like AQ is also wrong (as is calling that bet with nothing). I suggest betting small to find out where you stand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't advocate check-folding to a small bet. In fact, I suggested that one advantage to check-calling would be inducing a hand like AQ to bluff with three outs.


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

3) I agree, push semi-bluffing early in the tourney is not a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? What does early in the tourney have to do with anything?