A ridiculous thought?
 

So I was playing a tournament, as I usually do. And there is a huge donk at the table, as there usually is. He's spewing chips calling down with bottom pair, and I'm hoping for a hand to bust him with.

About 20 hands in I raise his BB with JJ. He calls and we get 10 high, rainbow flop. He had me covered, but I doubled through him as he called my all in on the turn with a gutshot. This left him with 200 or so chips with a t50 BB.

Anyhow, he rebuilt his stack getting lucky until we both hand about 3k. Then, I get involved in another pot with him. I have TPTK and have him covered. He calls me all the way down to the river, leaving himself with only t400 behind.

So I think to myself - Why not let him keep these chips and hopefully he can build up again. He can possibly take out better players doing so, and also accumulate more chips which I can take. So I check and he checks behind, mucking bottom pair (he held 3-5off).

How ridiculous is my line of thinking here?

The actual result, if it means anything: Turns out he did indeed rebuild, catching some good cards and I took about 50% of his average stack before he busted for good.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

i can't see how you'd make mor ethan 400 chips on average later. Most likely he's just going to give the 400 to someone else. And even if he does rebuild, you won't necesarily be the one to take them from him.If this was very late in a tournament, and you had a very large stack, i might see something to this.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

dude this is just cruel

but whats to stop him from giving it to other players with an equal % chance? do you have some sort of real special read that no one else has? if you did, and you knew no one else picked up on it, you might be able to make a case for this

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How ridiculous is my line of thinking here?

[/ QUOTE ]

On a scale of 1-10, I would say about a 9.9.

First off, there's a very real possibility that a fish with only 400 chips will push any two next hand, and in all likely hood you will not be the one they are shipped to.

Second, you're ignoring the possibility that you bust him, and his seat is then taken by another fish (the sea, she is overflowing) with more chips.

Third, you're committing a cardinal sin by not extracting maximum value.

Fourth, fifth, sixth, .... and so on.

Basically, take every chip another player is willing to donate without hesitation or remorse.

P.S.
Seventh, you will be giving the donk a nearly insurmountable advantage... he will be IN THE RED ZONE!!
...heh, couldn't help myself.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seventh, you will be giving the donk a nearly insurmountable advantage... he will be IN THE RED ZONE!!
...heh, couldn't help myself.



[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, beat me to it.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

By definition, a bad player has a -EV in a tournament. That means that just sitting at the table is costing him money, and over time, his stack will on average dwindle. Less than 50% of the time, he will take money from a good player, and about 11% of the time (assuming you are one of 9 good players at the table), you will be the one to take those chips from him. More than 50% of the time, he will donk away those last 400, and again, you'll get them about 11% of the time. Or, you could have a 100% chance of taking them now.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How ridiculous is my line of thinking here?

[/ QUOTE ]

On a scale of 1-10, I would say about a 9.9.


[/ QUOTE ]
that is being v generous.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

not trying to discourage discussion of new ideas or anything, but this is totally stupid.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

Let me try to be constructive in my response:

You are wanting to keep this guy around because he is more likely to give you chips than the rest of the table later. But to do that, he has to take them from the rest of the table, which he is less equipped to do than you. So while it's true that it will be easier to get chips from him at some point in the future, that fact is mitigated by the fact that he doesn't have them yet, and it will be harder for him to put himself in that position and to then give you those chips rather than someone else than it will be for you to just get the chips from the rest of the table directly.

I could see this being a neutral play (not a good one, but at least not a bad one) if it were a final table (no new player will come in) and the relative chip count was much lower (the equivalent of 15 or 20 chips here). But even then, the likelihood that you would benefit later is so low.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

Thanks for the responses - I was just trying to think 'outside the box' a little bit. I've never thought to do something like this, but after nearly doubling through the same guy twice, it popped into my head. I'll never do it again, I promise. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

However, I would still be interested in hearing why some people believe this move is better suited for something like the final table. I would think the benifit of knocking a player out (assuming a top heavy structure) would far outweigh this.

Any additional thoughts and criticisms on this topic are welcomed and encouraged.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

better suited for the final table??????

final table, a knockout blow is a must for both advancing in finishing place and accumulating chips.

Cant see this move being good at any point in tourny but most especially not at the final table.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

Try to maximize your value with every hand. If he's good for a call with his last 400, go ahead and take those chips. As Exit said maybe at the final there is some rationale to this move where keeping an extreme low stack may force some players to tighten up a bit and wait for shorty to be eliminated and move up the prize ladder. This doesn't seem to be the case though.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

exit stated "late in a tournament", NOT final table. late in a tournament is still a bad strategy since you want to reach final table with as big of a stack as you can and there is not guarantee that you will be the one to take the chips off him later. FINAL TABLE is where the money is at, this is a crucial mistake at the final table.

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

[ QUOTE ]
better suited for the final table??????

final table, a knockout blow is a must for both advancing in finishing place and accumulating chips.

Cant see this move being good at any point in tourny but most especially not at the final table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only in an extreme case, and even then, I don't think it can be any better than neutral.

Say you have 60000 chips, 8 very good players have 10000-45000 each, average say 20000, and the donkey has 1000. You're not really worried about busting out ahead of the donkey and his chips aren't that valuable to anyone, but if he sticks around and doubles up two or three times it's just as likely that he doubles through the other good players as you, but it hurts them worse. Depending on payouts you can also use his presence to pressure the others, although this is a separate issue.

Edit: This isn't an argument I'll defend to the death, just a thought...

Re: A ridiculous thought?
 

I know we are just making some hypothetical observations here and it makes for interesting conversation i suppose, but why would we assume that we will automatically be the one to take his chips? Isnt it possible that this donk may also later take our chips? Final table, there is a lot of pushbotting, very likely that anything can happen. Eliminate this player now and not only to you gain strength in your stack size, but you have now just increased your odds of finishing 1st by eliminating number one a player and number two the possibility that some other player takes his chips. We can't seriously be considering the slim possiblity that he may double up later and then doubling up again a good enough reason to keep him around. With all the pushbotting this is actually a reason to take him out, not keep him in. chip accumulation is a HUGE must.