slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

Standard party table. MP1 is especially passive, I've seen him call with amazing hands on the river

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

Booyah! Pretty uncoordinated ranbow flop, so I go for the slowplay to let people catch up a bit on the turn. Should I even bother at these limits?

Turn: (5.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, BB folds.

I can't really imagine this helping anyone, but if I don't bet I don't see myself making any money.

River: (8.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

So what do you think? I don't usually slowplay at these limits, should I save it for when the flop is TOTALLY ragged (like Q35r or something)?

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

Bet, bet, bet, I dont slow play these hands, most of these bozos at these limits will call you anyway because they think their Ace high is the nuts. Milk'em dry.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

I start betting this immediately on the flop. With 5 people in, there will be people calling with A high, pair of 3, pair of jacks, you name it. But the check sure can seem tempting but I would only really check here if it was a pot with 2 or 1 other player, but this is a multiway and I'm betting and expecting at least 2 callers on the flop.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

I think you can live your whole life and NEVER have to slow play this hand. People flopped backdoor flush draws, backdoor straights, bottom pair...they will call happily.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Booyah! Pretty uncoordinated ranbow flop, so I go for the slowplay to let people catch up a bit on the turn. Should I even bother at these limits? So what do you think? I don't usually slowplay at these limits, should I save it for when the flop is TOTALLY ragged (like Q35r or something)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Find sections on slowplaying in some 2+2 books. It's a very rare occurence, especially at the lower limits where so many people call with anything. This is not a place to slowplay. The flop is coordinated and the pot is big. This is the worst place to give a free card. If the pot was small and the flop was Q73r, then OK.

thanks + results
 

Alright, message recieved: slowplay under only extreme circumstances (small pots with few opponents and very ragged boards).

Just for interests sake I lost this one to KTo from MP1... how much more passive can you get? I've got a nice note on him now at least.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

I didn't even read the action beyond the flop because honestly it doesn't matter, bet this flop.
[ QUOTE ]
I've seen him call with amazing hands on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

So bet the flop and let him call that too.

Looking further at the hand now:
I hope someone hit a runner runner flush, or the inside straight with T8 so that you learn the pain of the kittens that are killed by your flop check.

When you think
[ QUOTE ]
Booyah! Pretty uncoordinated ranbow flop, so I go for the slowplay

[/ QUOTE ]

I want it to be immediately followed by the thought

fish like to call I like to let them

Re: thanks + results
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, message recieved: slowplay under only extreme circumstances (small pots with few opponents and very ragged boards).

[/ QUOTE ]

As a rule of addendum, never ever slowplay a set. I'd say that one should never slowplay anything less than a nut two-card flush at microlimits, and even then it takes exceptional circumstances. There's a couple exceptions, but its much more profitable to lose the value when a slowplay would have worked because it's so rare.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

Bet this flop because you are likely to get called by weaker hands. This is not a ragged flop. Any one with two cards greater than T will most likely call you. Why would you want to give them a free card. Players are usually way looser on the flop so why would you want to pass on this profitable opportunity?

Some players are bad enough to call you with 77 or A9 here. But as Ed Miller would say: "They can't call if you don't bet!"

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

I only consider slowplaying flopped straight and royal flushes, and even then some jack@ss is going to draw out on you.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

There are absolutely times to slowplays sets.

This is absolutely not the time.

You raised preflop. People expect you to bet. They won't believe you have QQ. They will think you have AK. Now they raise. Now you reraise. Now you make money.

Note also that if you always bet (after raising preflop) when you miss or when your hand is vulnerable, but always check your monsters, people will pick up on that. Any thinking opponent will think your flop check is pretty fishy considering the board and that you raised preflop.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

ouch, this is pretty bad

lead the flop already

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

Awful. Bet the flop 40000000% of the time. You will get action.

Re: thanks + results
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a rule of addendum, never ever slowplay a set

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree

SSHE has an example where you turn a set of 2's(my hand) and Ed suggests just calling the turn bet, since there are ppl left to act that will likely call 1bet drawing dead, but fold for 2 .. and the orig bettor could be bluffing

Re: thanks + results
 

Who am I do disagree with the bottom set master? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a couple exceptions, but its much more profitable to lose the value when a slowplay would have worked because it's so rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

This ambiguous quote from my post was referring to sets; I do agree that there are some valid slowplay situations. What I'm trying to say is it's pretty tough to extract much more value from slowplaying sets because for every time we successfully identify the 1% of the time we can slowplay, we usually make a few poor attempts pushing the overall endeavor into -EV.

While bottom set experts like yourself can probably pull this off, us newer guys almost always get burned trying to slowplay weaker hands IMO. That was actually the reason I suggested the 2-card nut-flush in my post as a starting point; because the potential exists for so many people to hit a second best hand. IMO the amount of times newer players incorrectly let someone improve to better than their set offsets the usefulness of the play.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

Grunching:
I have given up slowplaying at these limits. How many times do you have a hand that is pretty good (TPTK for instance) and you bet to the river and the chumps all call and suckout on you? A lot, in my experience. So, they will call, just bet and let them call. I seem to get bigger pots when I jut bet and occasionally you will get someone who tries a raise, and you go to war with people in the middle. Keep it simple, just bet.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

You HAVE to bet here.

At these limits, pots will grow. Players at these limits always chase their backdoors if they can do it cheaply (sometimes even if it expensive)

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

IV. Thou shall not slowplay the flop when thou is the only one that showed aggression pre-flop.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

Grunch:

I wouldn't slow play it with the straight possibilities and the number of players in the flop.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I only consider slowplaying flopped straight and royal flushes, and even then some jack@ss is going to draw out on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tilt factor on donk suck-outs to a beautiful set? Pretty donkin' HIGH. Bet, bet, BET

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

Only if by "slowplay" you mean, "Bet out the flop and only call a raise so that I can check-raise the em-effer on the turn." Of course, if nobody raises the flop, you should be the turn, too.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

[doing the grunch thing]

bet, bet, bet. You raised preflop UTG. If someone in LP had reraised you preflop I'd still try to bet/3-bet or bet/call and then check/raise the turn. It seems like what people do best in these games is call so give them the chance to do it.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Standard party table. MP1 is especially passive, I've seen him call with amazing hands on the river

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

[/ QUOTE ]
I had to swallow some puke back, you dick.

Seriously, why would you slowplay? If they specialize in making awesome (stupid) calls, let them. You'll get multiple calls on this flop. Ranging from a single overcard hoping to catch, a gutshot, oesd, any jack, the other queen, some underpairs, sometimes a 3 and definitely an overpair if it is somehow out there. Getting multiple calls from opponents on the flop is just as good as inducing one opponent to spew multiple bets.

You don't need to let them catch up to anything, they'll do it themselves.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

I don't see the value to slowplay here. The QJ on the flop will likely give someone a taste and keep them playing along. you are open to being drawn out here, so might as well make them pay along the way.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

grunch.

Bet the flop. You were the pre-flop aggressor. Make everyone pay to stay in especially when you've got equity.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

Whether or not to slow play is really a 2 part question and both answers have to be yes.

1. Is the board appropriate and is my hand strong enough. For this particular hand the answer is a marginal yes. You have top set and there are no major draws (QJ could be the makings of a straight, as T9 and KT are two hands people like to play at these limits).

2. Will betting cause them to fold?

That's the part you have to use your reads for. If they will call a bet go ahead and bet. Slow playing only works in theory if they would fold to a bet now but not to a bet on a later street.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

They called 2 preflop, they'll call one on the flop. Just bet. There are enough broadway cards here that someone is bound to have caught a piece of the flop.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

slowplay when the pot is small to build it, or when you have a monster hand and opponants will only improve to second best.

The texture of the board was pretty ragged in this case but it was still incorrect to slowplay.

Greg

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only if by "slowplay" you mean, "Bet out the flop and only call a raise so that I can check-raise the em-effer on the turn."

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

For me, one of the main questions I always ask is, "Can I count on one of these guys to bet if I check?" There was no aggression pre-flop, so without reads the answer here is no.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

:grunching

You probably missed out on some bets by slowplaying. You don't have any position so you're not able to punish villains with a raise on the turn anyway.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are absolutely times to slowplays sets.

This is absolutely not the time.

You raised preflop. People expect you to bet. They won't believe you have QQ. They will think you have AK. Now they raise. Now you reraise. Now you make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

Jake is smart. Listen to him. When you are the last aggressor pre-flop and you hit a monster, that is exactly the time you shouldn't slowplay. In fact, slowplaying and waking up on the turn often kills all your action.

And, honestly, slow-playing is usually lame. When I'm at a table where someone makes a bad slowplay and costs themselves a lot of money, it makes me feel dirty and embarassed. Slowplaying too much is the acne of poker adolescence.

Re: slowplay QQ on QJ3r?
 

Grunch. Classic FPS. BET THE FLOP. Reasons: (1) you raised PF; people expect you to bet and are unlikely to bet into you or even bet after you on the flop. (2) You talk about people improving their hands so that they'll give you action, but the main draw on this board beats you. No sense in giving free card to the straight draws. (3) are peole reall going to give action to a PFR who checks the flop and then goes nust on the turn?

I almost never slowplay at the micros.