river raise
 

no read.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (5.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>,

meh?

i intend to fold to a 3bet.

Re: river raise
 

I'm not sure. Will a pp or smaller pair fold here?

I'd rather see what he has and make a note on him.

Re: river raise
 

What do you think will call the raise that you beat? I don't like it. You open yourself up to being 3-bet by better hands, while folding out stuff you beat. Your hand has showdown value, so see a showdown. You're not extracting another BB from enough hands that you beat here to make it worthwhile.

Re: river raise
 

Call the river.

Re: river raise
 

not liking it against an unknown

Re: river raise
 

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not liking it against an unknown

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Re: river raise
 

I think most of the time you will produce a fold here. However,if he does call most of the hands that will call your raise I believe you beat. If you get 3-bet you can fold. I think the likely hood that your opponent grins and calls at this level outweighs the possiblity of you being 3-bet by a bd flush or TT.

Re: river raise
 

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not liking it against an unknown

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what exactly don't you like.

Re: river raise
 

Further, the only likely holding that I think that your opponent will call your raise with and beat you is KT (okay maybe a weakly bd flush) . The issue here IMO is not how likely it is that he will call your raise, but how likely it is you will win when you do raise and he calls. I think the latter is very high. So what's going to happen is
1) You will probably fold a lot of hands.
2)If you do get called you will probably win
3)If you get 3-bet your toast and you can fold.

Re: river raise
 

"Call the river."

i would appreciate more than this. not so much for my sake, but i really don't want to see this forum goto crap.

anyway, don't you think a big hand like a flush, straight, or trips check raises the river?

Re: river raise
 

i don't see how this is a bad raise. we beat any reasonable K, any T (edit: and he'll call the raise with them), he has a 5 or TT like never, a backdoor flush is somewhat unlikely, there are no possible straights, we stole from the cutoff so he may suspect we have a large range, and we are basically never folding the best hand if we get 3-bet.

Re: river raise
 

Perfect, exactly how i'd play it.

Not sure why almost everyone else prefers just a call. That seems way too passive in a game with this many donks. I raise expecting to see 10x or a King with a low kicker.

Fold to a 3bet seems good without a read.

Re: river raise
 

I like it.

that river donk is a weak hand and he'll call with a lot of worse K/7/T hands

Re: river raise
 

i like it joker. i think most of the unknowns would go for a c/r with 2pair or better.
imo, these donkbets often is some random crap and this guys will call this raise with lots.

nh

Re: river raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Call the river."

i would appreciate more than this. not so much for my sake, but i really don't want to see this forum goto crap.

anyway, don't you think a big hand like a flush, straight, or trips check raises the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not always. Some guys check raise, but plenty of guys just bet their flush when it hits because they worry it will get checked through. No straight out there... I think a weirdly played 5 could do this also. I just don't see enough hands that you are ahead of here. His play is definetly weird, but I think that weirdness tends to mean he either has you beat, or if he has a hand that you beat, probably won't call your raise, therefore giving you no value. I'm sure sometimes you get some value out of some crazy K with a worse kicker or crazy T, but I don't think this happens more then the times you lose 1 extra BB to trips or the flush. Sorry for my original post.

Re: river raise
 

Why are you raising the river? He is representing at least trips or a flush. I call the river.

Re: river raise
 

I'm not sure I like the raise, but I don't agree at all with people saying he will fold worse hands to your raise.

Re: river raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Call the river."

i would appreciate more than this. not so much for my sake, but i really don't want to see this forum goto crap.

anyway, don't you think a big hand like a flush, straight, or trips check raises the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, I would bet it. I think most of the time you are better off just betting your hand on the river like this if you have it.

Re: river raise
 

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I'm not sure I like the raise, but I don't agree at all with people saying he will fold worse hands to your raise.

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He will fold some worse hands to your raise. I just don't think the times he has a worse hand that he is calling with outweighs the time he has trips or a flush or a better king.

Re: river raise
 

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not liking it against an unknown

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what exactly don't you like.

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His kings up beat our kings up. Also, I don't know how common it is at this level for villains to donk trips 1-2 rounds after they hit, but that is a strong possibility too.

result
 

not that it matters, but he called and showed T7 for 3 pair and MHIG.

what i think it comes down to is that trips or better checkraises this river nearly all the time, and this is an assertion that the opponents of the raise have failed to address.

Re: river raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think will call the raise that you beat? I don't like it. You open yourself up to being 3-bet by better hands, while folding out stuff you beat. Your hand has showdown value, so see a showdown. You're not extracting another BB from enough hands that you beat here to make it worthwhile.

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Bingo.

Re: river raise
 

a worse king? a ten?

Re: river raise
 

You think a ten is paying off a raise on that board? Not often enough to risk getting 3-bet, same with a worse King.

Re: river raise
 

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You think a ten is paying off a raise on that board? Not often enough to risk getting 3-bet, same with a worse King.

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pretty much everyone agrees a worse hand never 3bets this river..

Re: river raise
 

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You think a ten is paying off a raise on that board? Not often enough to risk getting 3-bet, same with a worse King.

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I don't think many regular players are capable of bet/folding for just 1 BB if they have a pair.

Re: river raise
 

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You think a ten is paying off a raise on that board? Not often enough to risk getting 3-bet, same with a worse King.

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I don't think many regular players are capable of bet/folding for just 1 BB if they have a pair.

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This is an important point. This is probably true at 1/2, where I play, but I assumed more 5/10 players could fold to a river raise here.

Re: river raise
 

Even if they pay off a raise, you still get 3-bet often enough that it's yucky, IMO.

Re: river raise
 

Let's stop talking in absolutes.

It isn't true that people with a made flush or trips will invariably go for a river c/r; in fact, I think a sizable percentage will get scared that the river will be checked and will lead bet.

It's also not invariably true that a worse hand won't call a river raise; many really will.

But my guess is that an unknown 5/10 player who is making that river lead bet has hero beat here a large enough percentage of the time to make a raise -ev.

Re: river raise
 

I agree that calling is best. Not to sound like a roken record, but nothing worse is calling, and it probably isnt forcing out a better hand.

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
what i think it comes down to is that trips or better checkraises this river nearly all the time, and this is an assertion that the opponents of the raise have failed to address.

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I thought I did address it. Although you may play like this, and plenty of people may play like this, not everyone plays like this. Plenty of times people will lead their flush. If he has trips, he sure has played it strange, but again, sometimes people will do that.

Re: river raise
 

Happy Birthday!