hand from stars 500
 

Blinds 3000-6000, maybe 50 or so left, not sure.

Seat 1: lennart (116154 in chips)
Seat 2: steveg12 (177768 in chips)
Seat 3: The Camel (215452 in chips)
Seat 4: Cjones984 (77296 in chips)
Seat 5: winemo (135722 in chips)
Seat 6: REMA (107168 in chips)
Seat 8: Williamhill (120324 in chips)
Seat 9: icecreams (37304 in chips)

Willian Hill raises to 18k, I call in the BB with Qd10d.

Flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Check, check.

Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet 18k, he raises to 42k, I call.

River: 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, he pushes for his last 60k, I fold.

I'd love to get some feedback on the hand, and not just the river fold, which I know is not exactly standard. Thanks in advance.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

When the PFR checks the flop, I usually take this to mean he wants me to lead the turn.

Since I picked up a draw on the turn I check/call, as if he's a good player your turn lead is being raised >90% of the time.

He's playing it like an overpair, so I see no harm in giving him credit for it, but it cost so much to get to the river, getting 3-1 I'm fairly tempted to call, but I think a hand you beat probably bets the flop.

Its really easy to say this when I have all the info though....

I also fold this PF, but I'm weak-tight in the blinds.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: hand from stars 500
 

This is probably a fold preflop.

Edit: sorry, I thought opener was UTG.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

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This is probably a fold preflop.

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I disagree. QTs is playable in the BB with these stack sizes. You have 30BBs and can't giftwrap your BB every time the CO opens. I call with a lot less than QTs here, and call with QTs vs earlier openers. Maybe I'm too loose?

I usually check and call the turn and check-call a decent sized bet on the river. With different stack sizes I might checkraise the turn here but I don't think you can do anything but check-call here.

Given that you led the turn, I play the rest of the hand exactly like you did. I love putting players on hands I can beat and calling but I just can't put him on anything other than an overpair if he's a good player. I like betting the flop but I know many good players that check behind there.

The reason that I suck at analyzing hands is that so many lines are player specific. I have seen bad players take an AK or AQ and play it like this. I've also seen medium pairs played like this. I'm assuming that this guy is a good player because he ended up winning the tournament but if he's a little fishy I might call his river push. I'm really bad at folding.

Schaefer

Re: hand from stars 500
 

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This is probably a fold preflop.

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I disagree. QTs is playable in the BB with these stack sizes. You have 30BBs and can't giftwrap your BB every time the CO opens. I call with a lot less than QTs here, and call with QTs vs earlier openers. Maybe I'm too loose?

I usually check and call the turn and check-call a decent sized bet on the river. With different stack sizes I might checkraise the turn here but I don't think you can do anything but check-call here.

Given that you led the turn, I play the rest of the hand exactly like you did. I love putting players on hands I can beat and calling but I just can't put him on anything other than an overpair if he's a good player. I like betting the flop but I know many good players that check behind there.

The reason that I suck at analyzing hands is that so many lines are player specific. I have seen bad players take an AK or AQ and play it like this. I've also seen medium pairs played like this. I'm assuming that this guy is a good player because he ended up winning the tournament but if he's a little fishy I might call his river push. I'm really bad at folding.

Schaefer

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anyone shove the turn?

Re: hand from stars 500
 

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[ QUOTE ]
This is probably a fold preflop.

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I disagree. QTs is playable in the BB with these stack sizes. You have 30BBs and can't giftwrap your BB every time the CO opens. I call with a lot less than QTs here, and call with QTs vs earlier openers. Maybe I'm too loose?

I usually check and call the turn and check-call a decent sized bet on the river. With different stack sizes I might checkraise the turn here but I don't think you can do anything but check-call here.

Given that you led the turn, I play the rest of the hand exactly like you did. I love putting players on hands I can beat and calling but I just can't put him on anything other than an overpair if he's a good player. I like betting the flop but I know many good players that check behind there.

The reason that I suck at analyzing hands is that so many lines are player specific. I have seen bad players take an AK or AQ and play it like this. I've also seen medium pairs played like this. I'm assuming that this guy is a good player because he ended up winning the tournament but if he's a little fishy I might call his river push. I'm really bad at folding.

Schaefer

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I pretty much always call preflop here with stacks that deep, but I wont rule it out as a mistake. Im thinking that maybe the best action on the turn is just check and call a bet. I think he will read my turn bet as weak a lot of the time after his flop check behind, so maybe I'm getting raised by both his strong hands and his weak hands.

The river was a nightmare for me. I felt like it was such a close decision, and my time bank was already all used up which didnt help anything. Basically what caused me to fold was his flop check. It just seemed strange that he would check behind this flop with air. It was so ragged and I think he knows he will pick it up with a bet a lot of the time, and giving me a free card with a pairless hand could be costly. I guess that logic doesnt give my turn lead much merit, but when though about his flop play in combination with what he did on the turn and river, I didnt like it too much.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

William Hill took the exact same line against me at the final table with seven left.

It's a weird line that I'm gonna start using. I took the same line as you since most players just give it up on the turn.

When most players check behind the flop, they cannont call a turn bet. I know WilliamHill and he is a good player. Good players usually have a weak hand here, but one that might be good and are looking to get to the showdown cheaply. Pair below nine, KQ, Ax. The are usually planning to call a turn bet, but rarely have an overpair.

On the turn may be playing it like an overpair, but I don't think he has that. Your best line knowing what we not know about WilliamHill would probably be to check-push the turn, but thats some real hindsight coming into play there.

I'm a big believer in almost always choosing the most aggressive route in tournaments. I'm not against any of the lines. I think check-calling is okay too.

And last but not least, I would absolutely call on the river. The hand I fear most is 88. When he shows J-10, or busted diamonds take the pot. Also, you have him covered by 50k, which is plenty of fallback money.

Edit: You lose to 67 too, which is very consistent with his line. That is more likely than 88 IMO.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

I read it as a bluff. Either that or he flopped trips/fullhouse/quads. Checking behind the flop and raising the turn is not consistent with an overpair.

I really doubt he checks behind the flop with an overpair. Why would he not give you a chance to see where you're at with a small pp or c/r with air or whatever. The only reason to check behind the flop is to play a smaller pot in case you somehow flopped trips on him. But if this is his plan then raising the turn doesn't follow through with that. If controlling the pot size was his main concern then he'd just call the turn and probably just call or bet when checked to on the river.

It's possible he flopped a monster and slow played you. I'm sure his range is huge for opening from the CO, so he can have hands with 3s in them. I still think it's more likely that he puts you on a hand less than trips and figures you can't call.

And Steve, I've noticed you have had some success at tournaments. Please stick to tearing up the ring games. Thanks.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

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I love putting players on hands I can beat and calling but I just can't put him on anything other than an overpair if he's a good player.

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I disagree. I put him on a busted hand quite often here. I don't put him on an overpair (unless its AA) because if he's good, he has to know it's going in a lot on the flop if BB has a 9 or a pocket pair. Slowplaying anything other than 99 or AA doesn't make that much sense.


But you are very right since all these decisions are about getting into your opponents head.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

Another reason to call the river is that he's a very good player with a huge bankroll (if he's who I thin he is) who is focused on winning the tourney. Checking the river would leave him w/ only 60k. I find myself hedging decisions based on the fact that anything out of the top 5 doesn't matter much, maybe thats a reason he might push too.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

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And last but not least, I would absolutely call on the river. The hand I fear most is 88. When he shows J-10, or busted diamonds take the pot. Also, you have him covered by 50k, which is plenty of fallback money.

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Re: hand from stars 500
 

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The only reason to check behind the flop is to play a smaller pot in case you somehow flopped trips on him. But if this is his plan then raising the turn doesn't follow through with that. If controlling the pot size was his main concern then he'd just call the turn and probably just call or bet when checked to on the river.

It's possible he flopped a monster and slow played you. I'm sure his range is huge for opening from the CO, so he can have hands with 3s in them. I still think it's more likely that he puts you on a hand less than trips and figures you can't call.


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Exactly his flop check is all about controlling pot size with his weak hand. If he has A8, raising the turn is dumb. He would call and call a small bet on the river. The only reason for him to raie the turn is if he has a mega monster or is trying to bluff/semi bluff you.

Very nice post.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

btw, I really hate leading this turn unless you're planning on pushing when he raises, which isn't a horrible line. Players like this just don't check behind on the flop and give up to a half pot bet, especially at this point in the tournament.

c/ring all in on the turn is a fine line, I think.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

[ QUOTE ]
I read it as a bluff. Either that or he flopped trips/fullhouse/quads. Checking behind the flop and raising the turn is not consistent with an overpair.

I really doubt he checks behind the flop with an overpair. Why would he not give you a chance to see where you're at with a small pp or c/r with air or whatever. The only reason to check behind the flop is to play a smaller pot in case you somehow flopped trips on him. But if this is his plan then raising the turn doesn't follow through with that. If controlling the pot size was his main concern then he'd just call the turn and probably just call or bet when checked to on the river.

It's possible he flopped a monster and slow played you. I'm sure his range is huge for opening from the CO, so he can have hands with 3s in them. I still think it's more likely that he puts you on a hand less than trips and figures you can't call.

And Steve, I've noticed you have had some success at tournaments. Please stick to tearing up the ring games. Thanks.

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I appreciate the reply, your logic seems pretty solid. I think you and JV are right, I should have spite called him on the river.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

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The only reason to check behind the flop is to play a smaller pot in case you somehow flopped trips on him

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I am seeing a lot of overpairs and flopped sets when the PFR is checking the flop HU.

I know you and JV are very good at this game, but I can't easily say he weak with the flop check, more often than not I'm seeing big hands here, especially with the turn raise coming behind it.

You guys may know WIllian Hill better than me, and have a better read, but against random $100MTT+ players, I see a ton of big hands here.

In a deeper game lots of hands don't bet the flop so they don't start a big pot without the goods, but shallower, it looks more like an invitation to put some chips in, especially with the turn raise.


Regards,
Woodguy

Re: hand from stars 500
 

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William Hill took the exact same line against me at the final table with seven left.


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Que Pasa? Who were you? Kevmike?

Re: hand from stars 500
 

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William Hill took the exact same line against me at the final table with seven left.

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Are you hitting FT in at least one big one every week?

Wow.

Regards,
Woodguy

Great discussion so far
 

Well, I was sweating Steve through the final 100 or so players in this tournament. I really thought WilliamHill was on a move this hand the way the hand flowed. My instict really said move, basically based on everything Colson said. The pot control is the main thing. Also that river push screamed to me that he put Steve on a pair smaller than a T and praying that he folds it. Thinking more and more about it I really think its ridiculously close. The turn is probably misplayed for sure, but when we get to the river...to "Gracz it" or not to Gracz it is a very tough decision.

Basically the guy either had 99 a hand with a 3 or a bluff. Its hard to get 3 of a kind in this game, so I am leaning towards call.

One more thing to think about...when this turn gets raised, the guys range is really HUGE (like any 2 that he has gotten to the turn with) so a push seems good to me on the turn, only problem is u are gonna be drawing mighty thin if called so its more of a bluff than a semi-bluff.

The range narrows when the river is pushed I guess, but by how much? A good player is gonna realize that Steve's most likely hand here is a weakish pair and its not easy to call this river push with a weakish pair, so if the guy is reading the hand correctly a push with any 2 seems about right. Its almost like the guys turn raise was small enough to push the river and induce a fold if he sensed weakness, well we showed weakness so he pushed...either that or he had quads

Re: hand from stars 500
 

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btw, I really hate leading this turn unless you're planning on pushing when he raises, which isn't a horrible line. Players like this just don't check behind on the flop and give up to a half pot bet, especially at this point in the tournament.

c/ring all in on the turn is a fine line, I think.

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C/raising all in is a pretty big overbet unless he pots the turn. I guess checking with the intention of calling a half-pot bet and c/ring a pot-sized bet all in sounds like fun. I obviously don't have a ton of experience with online tourneys and weird lines always mess with my head but my initial reaction is that the guy will usually have a big hand here. Does he really have enough fold equity after his raise on the turn gets called? I guess maybe he checks an overpair behind on the river and only pushes with huge hands or nothing and you're right. Meh. I suck. At least we agree on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Schaefer

Re: hand from stars 500
 

I think your hand becomes apparent to William when you call the turn raise.

I was sweating this tournament, and at the time, I thought William checked the flop with no hand, riased the turn to blow you off, then when you called, (most surprising thing to William), I think he now realized you have a draw, if you had dust you would fold, and if you had a smaller PP you would fold, and anything strong all the chips were going in. So when you called, your range is not that big, diamonds or some straight draw. He knows you shouldnt call to improve with a hand like 55, so he thinks you think you have 8 or 9 outs.

Re: hand from stars 500
 

Does anyone call this turn, thinking that their Q and 10 are also outs with the diamonds? In addition, if you were villan, do you think you would be forced to push the river with any 8,9, or weak 10?