Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

What limit do you have to play at to play live professionally and crank out a decent living? 20/40?

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

the first question is what do you consider a decent living. after that it becomes much easier to answer the question. If you want to live at the quality of life of your average civil servant (somewhere around 50,000/year pretax which comes out to be (in nyc at least) about 550/wk after taxes) then I think if you are rock solid you could live off of 6/12 or 10/20 with little issue assuming you have sufficienct bankroll to survive the inevitable up's and downs of playing every day. If you find a solid regular game at a casino you begin to recognize the other semi regulars which is a big bonus as well as the fact that you eat and drink for free during your time playing...

I know I'm going to hear the bb/hr crowd say it is impossible to live at these games but I really don't see where you can't make at least a hundred a day playing one of those midlevel games. If you want to live more extravagantly then obvioulsly you need higher stakes

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

I'm thinking bare minimum, rent & food. What limit breaks you even?

This is strictly hypothetical btw.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

I've read 20/40 is sorta the minimum. Of course, you could switch to no limit but hold on for the rollercoaster!

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

I'd say 10/20 if you're single with no kids and live in a cheap studio apartment. 100 bucks a day is only 5 BBs a day. No problem. 5 days a week, $500 a week. $2000 a month. You play 11 months out of the year. $22,000 a year. This is comfortably livable under these circumstances. Of course, you can play longer than 5 hours a day to earn more. But if you're a lazy minimalist than 10-20 is fine.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

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Of course, you could switch to no limit but hold on for the rollercoaster!

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A brilliant player can get a strong hand cracked, go on tilt...and lose his mind along with every single chip in front of him. This is why the World Series of Poker is decided over a No-Limit Hold 'Em table. Some people, pros even, won't play No-Limit. They can't handle the swings. But there are others, like Doyle Brunson, who consider No-Limit the only pure game left. Like Papa Wallenda said..."Life is on the wire. The rest is just waiting."

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

Like everything in poker, the answer to your question is "it depends." I regularly play at a B&M casino near Chicago and play $5/$10 hold'em. On a decent day, it's not unheard of for my to leave with a $200/day profit after 10 - 12 hours of play. Of course, I'm usually playing with 3 or 4 of the same guys every week, and I have a recent handle on their styles, and 2 of them are complete fish who are retired and are playing mostly for fun.

The answer to your question depends on the following: (1) game selection; (2) quality of players; (3) quantity of pros and/or knowledgeable players who frequent the room; (4) house rake; (5) travel expenses; and many other factors.

Perhaps the most important thing to consider is that right now, poker is in the middle of a huge boom, with a large number of fish in a growing pond. As I said earlier, I regularly bring home $200/day playing $5/$10, but I do this because the players I play with are horrible and numerous. In 5 years, I would be surprised if I was able to maintain this win rate as newer players grow tired of losing or go broke. Having said this, I know of no players at my local casino who make a living playing $5/$10, but personally know of 2 who make a decent living (i.e lower-middle class) playing $10/$20 limit. However, they acknowledge that they are usually playing upward to 12 hours per day, 6 days a week. Most are hoping to learn and acquire the necessary bankroll to play in bigger games ($15/$30 or higher) within the next year or so, as they fear that the poker bubble, like the .com stock bubble, will one day burst, forcing them to search for bigger games in order to earn their living.

Of course, all that I have said applies only to live B&M games. It may be possible to earn a sufficient living at low limit games online b/c you can play multiple tables at once and more hands per hour, the more you can make at lower limits.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

I decided not to start a new post so as not to clutter the forums. Here's another question:

What background/education/experience would be needed to work as a pokerroom or casino manager?

Once agian, hypothetical.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

And of course what I haven't seen anybody mention yet is that you must have the required skill and personality traits to be able to become a long term winner at the game, which 99% of the people playing poker -- no matter how much Sklansky they've read -- simply do not have.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

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I've read 20/40 is sorta the minimum. Of course, you could switch to no limit but hold on for the rollercoaster!

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If someone is a solid player, and actually has the personality traits to play NL and not tilt(99% of the time), should his swings be less in NL? I know some have proven that swings are less in NL. Of course, you could lose your whole stack on one hand, but a good player should be able to avoid that happening more often than a bad player, who would be more inclined to get his money in with the worst of it.

I play limit online, and notice the swings. I couldn't imagine being a live pro and going on a 10k hand downswing in limit. That would take forever to come out of. I'd rather bore myself to death folding hand after hand in NL.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

First off, you have to be skilled enough to be a WINNING player. That being said I would not play pro unless I had a 100K BR and were skilled enough to profit at 20-40 at a minimum. To grind it out at anything less just does not earn you enough and you might as well just get a real job. The 10-20 and 15-30 are great limits for second income and good living. Dunno, I guess I just like spending money too much to have my poker earnings go towards living expenses. If you are going to try to grind out a living at the lower limits and have your profits go towards expenses how would you ever build enough of a BR to play at higher limits where you can truly make a decent living?

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

If you play 15/30 --- 40 hours a week ---make 1 BB your looking at 1200 a week----
1 BB an hour you can do.

30/60 at 40 per week is 2400 at 1 BB per hour---
Most will do a little less then this some a little more---
go with 45 and hour thats 1800-------

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
I decided not to start a new post so as not to clutter the forums. Here's another question:

What background/education/experience would be needed to work as a pokerroom or casino manager?

Once agian, hypothetical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I’d bet that some amount of floor experience is required to be a room manager. And I don’t know any floor who haven’t dealt previously. Education? Probably not much required. Knowing the right people is big as well.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

watch TV much?

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

i dont think you quite understand just how loose the games are even at 20/40.. here up north at foxwoods there are 6 players per flop, just like the lower limits.. i dont care if you play limit or NL.. you need a HUGE bankroll to play for a living whether in NL or limit.. i would also be even willing to say that because of the pure LAG style of players (unless you move up to very high limits) that you would need a BR bigger for LHE than NLHE, because in NL you're playing tighter, and chasing less. LHE is very mathematical but when you're not hitting those draws (which will happen, and it feels like forever when the bad streaks come) you're gonna go through a lot if you're playing correctly in jamming the pot with strong draws.

say you're playing 20/40 and you have a open ended SD and FD, you're looking at pumping that pot for value to sting those guys who are coming in with any pair, suited connectors.. etc.

it takes quite a patient person to play full time, I play $200 $1/$2 NL for a living as a student, and it is more stressful than any other living you can imagine. Do yourself a huge favor and make sure of a few things.

1. your skill level is significantly large over your opposition.
2. you are an established <u>winning player</u>.
3. you can deal withe the stress of losing when you're playing the correct way. (because in cash games, rather than tournaments, you see the losses pile up in front of you)
4. you have enough money put aside so that you can live for six months minimum with no winnings.
5. you have a BR large enough that it is never a thought in your mind. you should also be adding to it whenever you make a larger than normal win streak.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

I think someone just starting out would have a much better chance of making a good amount of money quickly by learning NL. Its so easy to beat the live NL games up to 2-5, and the variance is minimal if you don't adopt a LAG style.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

you could probably live off of 6/12 if thats all you want. make 1 BB/HR, and ur ahead of all the mall employees who somehow make a living from their crappy jobs.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

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you could probably live off of 6/12 if thats all you want. make 1 BB/HR, and ur ahead of all the mall employees who somehow make a living from their crappy jobs.

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That's something I thought about. How do grown people, with families and such, make a living at Mickey D's, low-level Macy's, Gamestops, etc.? Some are working two jobs, no doubt, but many are working one, and for not much more than minimum wage(no offense to any here). I think I'd much rather play poker for minimum wage/10 an hour than work some crappy job at the mall. So quality of living and the amount you earn is really all relative.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

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you could probably live off of 6/12 if thats all you want. make 1 BB/HR, and ur ahead of all the mall employees who somehow make a living from their crappy jobs.

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You can make more than 1BB/hour playing 6/12. Those games are a lot easier than 40/80. Some people don't like a lot of risk. Also low limit requires different skills, less aggressiveness and reading and more knowing when to foldem. I know someone who plays that level professionally and makes 2BB/hour. That's not great, but definately an OK living. However, I having a feeling he would do better playing a little higher.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

I said in my reply that you would hear this from the 1BB/hr crew and I say again...it is not that hard to make more than one BB per hour in the games that you play at any big casino from Thursday to Sunday. Anywhere from 6/12 to 15/30 and you should be able to clear somewhere around 200 per day which is better than the managers at all those stores mentioned at the mall. In fact it's better than teachers, cops, firemen, janitors, and lots of other jobs.
Yes you have to give up weekends and yes you have have to be tighter with your money than someone that knows that on every thursday a check is coming but the question was what is the bare minimum...

As for the NL/Limit question - hard to say. More quick money in NLHE for sure but the swings can/will kill you

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

In my city if you have the roll for it, 20/40 on the weekends play as tough as party 1/2. No joking! The players cluelessly calling ace 8 off in any position and chasing against brick boards like birds. The game is easily beatable by a decent player....... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

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More quick money in NLHE for sure but the swings can/will kill you


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This is the third of forth time this has come up in this thread. I've always thought the swings are worse in limit. I've read it, and I've instinctively thought it.

So, wtf?

The beats in NL are worse, sure. But the swings? That doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

I think some people may be pushing small (or even negative) edges in no limit. Definitely higher fluctuation that way. Make sense now? You just have a different risk/reward formula.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's something I thought about. How do grown people, with families and such, make a living at Mickey D's, low-level Macy's, Gamestops, etc.? Some are working two jobs, no doubt, but many are working one, and for not much more than minimum wage(no offense to any here). I think I'd much rather play poker for minimum wage/10 an hour than work some crappy job at the mall. So quality of living and the amount you earn is really all relative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Working at McDonald's is guaranteed income. Even if you're good, there's no guarantee you can clear $10/hr playing small stakes Hold 'em. There's no guarantee you won't get burned out before you start to turn a profit. And as far as "crappy" jobs, I think you'll find that playing 6-12 Hold 'em for 8 hours a day can turn into a pretty miserable job pretty fast.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think some people may be pushing small (or even negative) edges in no limit. Definitely higher fluctuation that way. Make sense now? You just have a different risk/reward formula.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming a NL player and limit player push the same edges, it would seem to me that the bigger bet size is more likely to induce folds thus preventing suckouts and decreasing variance.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course, you could switch to no limit but hold on for the rollercoaster!

[/ QUOTE ]

A brilliant player can get a strong hand cracked, go on tilt...and lose his mind along with every single chip in front of him. This is why the World Series of Poker is decided over a No-Limit Hold 'Em table. Some people, pros even, won't play No-Limit. They can't handle the swings. But there are others, like Doyle Brunson, who consider No-Limit the only pure game left. Like Papa Wallenda said..."Life is on the wire. The rest is just waiting."

[/ QUOTE ]

i laughed.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think some people may be pushing small (or even negative) edges in no limit. Definitely higher fluctuation that way. Make sense now? You just have a different risk/reward formula.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming a NL player and limit player push the same edges, it would seem to me that the bigger bet size is more likely to induce folds thus preventing suckouts and decreasing variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing small edges also involves CALLING large overbets when you think you are in the lead. Maybe I am misusing the term "pushing" in your eyes. Maybe "playing small edges" makes more sense.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

I don't see what calling large overbets has to do with varaince and swings.

Lets asssume the players play equally well at their respective games. All things being equal, calls, raises, etc, seems to me NL is less swingy.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what calling large overbets has to do with varaince and swings.

Lets asssume the players play equally well at their respective games. All things being equal, calls, raises, etc, seems to me NL is less swingy.

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Of course, it also depends on the stakes and the type of game. Are we comparing a 1/2 NL capped buy-in game to a 3/6 limit game or to a 10/20 game?

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what calling large overbets has to do with varaince and swings.

Lets asssume the players play equally well at their respective games. All things being equal, calls, raises, etc, seems to me NL is less swingy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, it also depends on the stakes and the type of game. Are we comparing a 1/2 NL capped buy-in game to a 3/6 limit game or to a 10/20 game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, we've hijacked this enough. I was being general. I don't care as much anymore.

Re: Live Limit Hold\'em Pros
 

Well the point I was making was that playing poker can be a crap job just like McDonalds. People still get burned out at mall jobs. Only advantage is a possible career, but thats no guarantee either.

And I think 10/hr would be easy for a "good" player.