QQ Hand
 

Since we've decided that $40-$80 counts as "high limit", here goes...

I'm posting this because Mike l. gave me a ton of grief about the hand.

B&M 40-80 game. The game is medicore. There's only one really bad player and the rest are passive nits. There's one New Guy (NG) to my immediate right who I sense is taking a shot at a higher limit, but I'm not sure. He hasn't won any pots and is slowly getting nitted to death. He's on his second buy-in.

5 players limp and I complete in the Small Blind with QQ.

Flop: Jd-5c-3h

I check. Solid Player (SP) bets, NG calls, I call and the Live One calls. NG made a weird spazzy motion when he called. My read was that he wanted to raise but then didn't.

Turn: Jd-5c-3h (8h)

All check to the NG, who bets. I raise and it's folded back to NG. NG 3 bets. Eff me. After some thought I decided to call.

River: Jd-5c-3h (8h) (3d).

I check.

Comments?

Re: QQ Hand
 

Tell me this was not you who had QQ here.

Re: QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me this was not you who had QQ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: QQ Hand
 

I do not believe you played this hand as the QQ.

~D

Re: QQ Hand
 

I can't imagine any reason to not put in more bets preflop and on the flop.

Re: QQ Hand
 

PREFLOP: This is a must raise! You have a strong equity edge in this situation, you must raise to exploit this edge. Just calling here was a grave sin.

FLOP: If I read your post right, there are 7 people seeing this flop including you and the BB. In this situation I like checking better than betting, since someone is very likely to bet and you can then checkraise for elimination or checkraise for value depending on the action. In your situation you couldve accomplished both objectives, by checkraising you couldve forced the live one to either fold correctly or call incorrectly and you couldve got more money in the pot by making the solid player and the NG put another small bet in. Checking and calling in this situation was again the wrong move in my opinion, you shouldve raised.

TURN: There is 5.5BB in this pot now, this means that if you bet, no one will be getting the correct odds to call with a gutshot or even a 5 outer, since a bet will protect your hand there is no reason to go for a check raise now, plus if you bet out the solid player may raise to protect your hand anyways, another problem with going for the turn checkraise is that there is a chance that this turn may get checked around and 3 opponents seeing the river for free would be a catastrope for your one pair hand. If the flop bettor was directly on your right checkraising the turn would have more merit, but he is not so betting out the turn for reasons I have listed is the better play IMO.

Given the way you played the hand once the NG bets you must raise and you did so I like your play there. Once the NG 3 bets you are in big trouble since his most likely hand given his play thus far is 55 or 33, it is also possible he has J8s but he probably wouldve raised the flop, or he could have 53s but he probably would not 3 bet the turn. You have a profitable draw to beat these 2 unlikely hands and theres always the chance your opponent is overplaying AJ or he has some BS hand like Ah5h. Since the pot is now quite large(10.5BB) and you are against an unknown I think you should call down.

Re: QQ Hand
 

yuck. This hand shouldn't even be moved to mid or small. Micro perhaps?

Ugly.

Re: QQ Hand
 

That's great advice. Very helpful.

Re: QQ Hand
 

More high quality input from the mods.

Re: QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
More high quality input from the mods.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, so just cause I'm a mod I can't rip you for a hand that was played like a $2/4 wannabe pro?

Re: QQ Hand
 

Boris obviously the standard play for those who post in high stakes is to raise this one preflop, so until you address that point I'm not sure how we can reply. If I did limp preflop I would certainly checkraise the flop, or bet the flop hoping to get raised. I understand why you might want to wait until a later street to raise, but there are too many people in this hand. Two small bets is worth just as much as one big one.

my thoughts
 

it was him with the QQ already.

anyway what i said was preflop obviously we raise most of the time but calling sometimes is okay. remember, it's the play sklansky likes, let's not go into why it's still better to raise, bottom line is calling can have it's merit.

flop is clearly a disaster but boris had his reasons. for me the play from the sb into such a large field on such a drawless board is bet in hopes of being able to 3 bet. save the c/r for when you have a gutshot heavy board and want to get those gutter balls out. after you bet if someone else 3 bets for you flat call so you can c/r that guy on the turn is the play. anyway bet-3 bet is significantly better than c/r here imo because of the texture of this board: i.e. it's super safe and good for QQ, plus the pot is too small you need to add some beef to it and that's more important than trying to clear out the field. plus remember they cant read your hand, you flat called preflop. so a pair of Js will give you too much action.

given the flop smooth call, on the turn the play is to donk bet and hope someone raises so you can 3 bet.

hope this helps.

oh one more thing: 40-80 is NOT high stakes lol, who decided that? HS should be 80 and up.

Re: QQ Hand
 

You can rip me all you want as long as you specify which plays were wrong and why.

Re: QQ Hand
 

I didn't raise pre-flop because I felt it may severely diminish any chance of check-raising on later streets. No doubt I gave up beaucoup equity by this decision. But I also felt I would win the pot more often by just calling pre-flop.

Re: QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I felt it may severely diminish any chance of check-raising on later streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

which is why you check-called the flop as well. youre correct that the crux of this hand is the chance of clearing out players and increasing your chance of winning the pot vs. getting more money in the pot. because you didnt raise preflop (again not at all worthy of debate imo) your play of the hand shouldve leaned more heavily in favor of building a bigger pot on such a perfect board, the pot is not large enough to be so concerned with trying to c/r. bet-3 bet flop and/or turn was the play, especially because your hand was so well disguised

Re: QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise pre-flop because I felt it may severely diminish any chance of check-raising on later streets. No doubt I gave up beaucoup equity by this decision. But I also felt I would win the pot more often by just calling pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this concept, but stuff like this has been discussed at depth on the forums and I'm pretty sure just about everyone agrees in the long run the extra small bets are worth more than winning the pot more often. The limp preflop, checkraise plan just leaves you with too small of a pot, and you end up getting totally killed on the later streets when someone flops a set, but not winning a lot of bets when your hand is good. If you put a lot of money in preflop, the times you lose to a set don't hurt as much.
If you really want to checkraise, I think you could raise preflop and still get a checkraise in on the flop quite often. You check the flop with 6 guys to act one of them will decide to bet, especially because your hand will look like AK to them.

Re: QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you put a lot of money in preflop, the times you lose to a set don't hurt as much.

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Good point.

Re: QQ Hand
 

Yea I like your bet/3bet plan. Not sure it would have worked in this situation though.

Re: QQ Hand
 

On the river I like the check call much better than a bet because if you did just pull in front of two pair your opponent will still be betting. The way you played the hand early means he can't put you on an overpair.

Re: my thoughts
 

Good analysis.

Re: QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you really want to checkraise, I think you could raise preflop and still get a checkraise in on the flop quite often. You check the flop with 6 guys to act one of them will decide to bet, especially because your hand will look like AK to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, good stuff. Then when they see you play this way with QQ, you also stand a better chance of getting a free card when you raise from the bb with Ak and the flop comes J85.

There is no rule that I know of which says that you must bet the flop when you raise preflop.

In fact, my standard play here would be to raise preflop and check on the J85 flop to checkraise a player to my right. If a player to my left bets and a couple of guys call, I would still checkraise now - for value rather than limiting the field - and sow some doubt in their minds that I flopped a set of jacks.

Just calling the flop - because the bet came from your left - is inferior to checkraising. Lots of stuff can happen on the turn which may foil your plans to checkraise on the turn. For example, if an ace or King comes, you may have to bet it yourself as the action might get checked through if they put you on Ak. Also if the turn is a 9 or something and the board is now J985, a bet and a raise ahead of you may leave you in a quandary as to what to do with your qq.

All kinds of crap can happen. You should decloak on the flop. Besides, as Mike l. said, they would never put you on QQ since you didn't raise preflop and someone with a hand as "weak" as KJ may go to war with ya.

Re: QQ Hand
 

Responses like this will bury this forum pretty quickly. If you don't like the hand give a reason why. The point of this forum isn't to be elitist and that's all I'm seeing.

Re: QQ Hand
 

This is not the sort of respones that a mod should make. We all know you can contribute BK.

lf

Re: my thoughts
 

I think almost anytime you slowplay a big pair preflop, your best play is to lead/3-bet, over check-raising. Waiting to the turn with this mainly players is a disaster.

I think you may have been thinking one street at a time in this hand and ran yourself into a pickle. That is usually how I get myself into these messes - and it almost always happens when I'm in unfamiliar territory (in this case - a five way limped pot) w/ QQ.

Re: QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can rip me all you want as long as you specify which plays were wrong and why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise pre-flop.

Given that you didn't I don't think your line is the worst, although I think betting out and 3 betting is a superior play.

The river is close. check/calling is probably better than betting but esp given that almost raise on the flop I think j8 is a distinct possibilty.

And sorry to all for being a dick, esp boris.

Re: my thoughts
 

I think raising preflop and pushing your equity edge is the correct play. Given that you didn't, like bet/3betting the flop followed by check-raising. I don't like the check call, you likely have the best hand and want some value and to shut out people in a multiway pot.

Re: my thoughts
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think almost anytime you slowplay a big pair preflop, your best play is to lead/3-bet, over check-raising. Waiting to the turn with this mainly players is a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was about to make a post in this thread like i did w/ TT post but i saw you make a post and wanted to read it first. this is exactly what i was thinking. and i think you're dead on. checking the flop here given the preflop play is no goot.

[ QUOTE ]

I think you may have been thinking one street at a time in this hand and ran yourself into a pickle. That is usually how I get myself into these messes - and it almost always happens when I'm in unfamiliar territory (in this case - a five way limped pot) w/ QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, dead on. when you travel in unchartered waters, you make more mistakes even if your initial decision to chart into those waters was good. the inclusion of your possible mistakes given unconventional play is necessary. so boris, if you were going to play a perfect flop like this the way you did, you need to raise pf imo.

Barron

The river
 

This might make me sound like a complete goofball lagtard, but i've been trying to work on my river play.

What does everybody think of a river c/r fold to a 3 bet? What got there on the turn that we aren't in front of on the river, except for a set? Only a full house will 3bet, and all the two pair hands will call having no reason to put hero on an overpair.

As others have already stated the rest of the hand is a little goofy, but I think thats been discussed enough.

lf

Re: QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise pre-flop because I felt it may severely diminish any chance of check-raising on later streets. No doubt I gave up beaucoup equity by this decision. But I also felt I would win the pot more often by just calling pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is your goal to maximize earn or minimize variance? Even if you are able to better "protect" your hand (debateable), people don't fold that many more hands that they wouldn't have already folded had you just raised PF and bet the flop. IMO.


Also, I think if you complete PF, you gotta do it knowing people are underestimating how strong you are, meaning you need to get more bets in. Preferably on the flop, since on the turn it's easy to get frozen up when people give you action (sorta like what happened here).

I hope you checked the river in intent of raising?

Re: QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's only one really bad player and the rest are passive nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's just me, but this sounds like an awesome game.

RESULTS
 

Heh. Well, as opposed to the rest of you, I thought my call of the turn 3 bet was the fishiest part of the hand. Anyways, I checked on the river and the bad guy checks behind. WTF is up with that? I turned my hand over (somewhat sheepishly I might add) and the bad guy inserts his cards in the muck.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Heh. Well, as opposed to the rest of you, I thought my call of the turn 3 bet was the fishiest part of the hand. Anyways, I checked on the river and the bad guy checks behind. WTF is up with that? I turned my hand over (somewhat sheepishly I might add) and the bad guy inserts his cards in the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe you were considering folding. I've posted this a million times in this forum, but I'll do it again. You simply cannot (and I mean this, it is one of the worst things you can do in poker) make a tight fold on a late street after slowplaying your hand earlier. They have no idea your hand is as good as it is, that is why they are 3 betting you.

Re: RESULTS
 

If you were there you would have considered folding. Trust me. You would never find this guy in a Pokerstars 100-200 game, much less a 30-60.

Re: QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you really want to checkraise, I think you could raise preflop and still get a checkraise in on the flop quite often. You check the flop with 6 guys to act one of them will decide to bet, especially because your hand will look like AK to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you raise preflop, with this many players, your opponents almost have to bet the flop if there is a chance they have the best hand, because the pot is so big and juicy. Even most of the bad players understand this. So you should get a chance to check/raise most of the time.

FWIW, I like mike's bet/3-bet plan best on this board.

Re: RESULTS
 

true but you explained to death donkey and i that he may have been fed up from losing pot after pot. im pretty sure the guy had KJ.

Re: QQ Hand
 

Is raising QQ here PF even a question?
You think NG limped second in with 33 or 55?

I don't get these two points of the hand. Other than that...

Re: RESULTS
 

I think not raising pre-flop is okay only if you'll play the flop fast if it's good for you. No one will put you on QQ, so lead and hope to 3 bet someone's TP. If not leading, c/r. Had you shown strength prior to the turn, his 3 bet would have had a lot more wieght.

He was probably more surprised that you had QQ than you were of his river check.

Re: QQ Hand
 

definently bet the river

Re: RESULTS
 

I find when a guy is losing at stakes that might be slightly uncomfortable for him, the indecision about raising or calling is not because the guy is undecided about slowplaying, but rather because he's undecided about whether his hand actually merits a raise. So I'd be more inclined to put him on J-8s or Qh-Jh or somesuch than a set.

One should always consider raising, calling, and folding; only 3 decisions, a shame not to at least consider all three. But the indecision on your opponent's part, plus the fact that you slowplayed a hand which he would have no reasonable way to put you on, would have made me think he was weaker than he otherwise might be.

Re: QQ Hand
 

Boris, Boris, Boris...

You've got to pop that preflop, because popping it is fun. I like to play big pots, especially with big pairs. I understand your rationale for not raising, but I don't agree with it. 2.5 big bets is a lot, you know? Hell, sometimes even people will just reraise for the hell of it, and then you get to play a monster.

Being that you didn't, then I like getting lots of bets in on the flop. Either bet it out or checkraise. A C/R would have been hot here, since it sounds like you would have been able to get a 3-way cap, possibly even 4 ways with the live one. This is becasue the better is on your left, the live one in the middle, and the spazzo on your right. Bingo bango bongo.

You can't fold your hand. Even if you know you're beat, just show it down and look stupid. I like the play on the turn & river, actually. There is one thing that I don't like, though: you said you THOUGHT ABOUT IT. Never do this. You don't want people to think about anything, nor let them know that you can be made a little uncomfortable. Just call it down in a flash. If you do have to think about it, try to learn to BS them while you buy yourself some time.

Oh and by the way: 40-80 is plenty big to be "high limit" - you can get all the money in the world at this level if you play well. I'd say that's plenty big, and given a few years, most of the others on this board will agree with me.