defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

curious to find out what hands you guys call steal raises with in the Big Blind...

Also what hands you 3 bet the steal raiser with...

I'm looking for a range of hands...what the absolute bare minimum quality type hand you can profitably call with and what hands you
are losing value with by not 3 betting the steal raiser.

Assume a typical opponent, raising in late middle pos. to the button.

(i have no clue if the decisions I am making in my aggressive ring games are correct, so I am in desperate need of some advice from the experts - thank you so much in advance)

Joe

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

The title of your post implies that you would defend differently in a SH game than a full game, even if the raise came from the same position.

is this the case?

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

I know the answer to this is "Yes."

I believe the answer is yes b/c you post the blinds more often in the 5 or 6 seat SH game, and, as a result of this you must defend your Big Blind "tenaciously" in a short handed game, as well as 3 bet the raiser more often.
This is because the quality of hands you are likely to be up against in the SH
game is much less, and guys will raise your Big Blind in SH with any Ace, any K, or Q7s, right?

In the 10 or 9 seat game, you are much more likely to be up against an actual real hand, so you should not be defending your big blind as much, right? (plus you can afford to "let it go" and fold more, as you don't post it that often...you can play the waiting game more at Longhand, waiting for the real qulaity hands/the decent hands w/ position, etc.)

I want to know if I should be calling someone's raise to "take a flop" when I have 45s in the Big Blind in a longhanded game...
how about J9o...do I call?
How about 109o or 108o? Should I 3 bet the guy with A4s? or 66?

I just read Ed Miller's article on SH play on his new website (which is why I know you have to act crazily to defend you BB in a SH game...) - so I'm not taking any real credit for knowing this...lol
I also lose whenever I play shorthanded...no doubt because of my lack of knowledge on which hands to defend my big blind with/which hands to 3 bet with out of the BB...

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

I will have to read ed's article.

I think that unles you know something about an opponent, his open raising standards should be the same 2 off the button, regardless of how many people are in the game. If you think the very fact that the game is SH makes this player change his standards, then you would differ.

On the flip side, my default opening (stealing if I am button or CO) standards are the same regardless of how many people are at the table. The bunching effect (the idea that blinds have better hands when 5 folds occur than when 2 occur) exists, but I don't think has a very big effect on this.

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The title of your post implies that you would defend differently in a SH game than a full game, even if the raise came from the same position.

is this the case?


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I know the answer to this is "Yes."

[/ QUOTE ]

then you may know wrong assuming the following:
1)lets assume 100/200 but limits dont really matter.
2) a player raises from the CO (or UTG 4 handed).
3) the very same player raises from the CO after its been folded to him.
4) he doesn't believe in bunching.
5) he doesn't alter his play given metagame considerations.

given those assumptions your requirements should not change, so the answer to stox's quetsion should be "no, my defending requirements would not change if the same player raised from the same position short handed vs. full ring game given the above assumptions."

[ QUOTE ]

I believe the answer is yes b/c you post the blinds more often in the 5 or 6 seat SH game, and, as a result of this you must defend your Big Blind "tenaciously" in a short handed game, as well as 3 bet the raiser more often.
This is because the quality of hands you are likely to be up against in the SH
game is much less, and guys will raise your Big Blind in SH with any Ace, any K, or Q7s, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

would he do that in a full ring game? raise Q7s from the Hijack? if so then yea you should defend yoru blinds more but its not because they are being posted more, its because his requirements to steal are so low that UTG 5 handed he raises Q7s.

if the player's mentality changes from 10-5 handed then you need to change your defending requirements accordingly. but given the above assumptions your defense strategy shouldn't change.

[ QUOTE ]

In the 10 or 9 seat game, you are much more likely to be up against an actual real hand, so you should not be defending your big blind as much, right? (plus you can afford to "let it go" and fold more, as you don't post it that often...you can play the waiting game more at Longhand, waiting for the real qulaity hands/the decent hands w/ position, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

here is where i think you're getting confused. posting the blinds more is one side of it. but YOU are in the HJ, CO, and BU more often in a shorthanded game. these positional advantages mitigate the loss you take from posting so often in the blinds. think of the more frequent posting as a charge to be in the best positions more often. further, if you play better than your opposition, playing shorthanded will yeild more hands played/100 or /hr or /whatever. more hands played means more decisions. if you make better decisions than your opposition then the more chances you have to do that, the higher your earn/hr or whatever. therefore, the frequency of blinds posted shoudln't really matter although it could be used as a proxy for those more important considerations b/c it's highly corralated with them. but im not an expert and my opinions could be wrong. (READ: im writing off the cuff here so take what i say with a grain of salt)

now if one player steals more given its 5 handed than he would 10 handed you need to defend/3bet more for sure. but it has nothing to do with the frequency of the posting of your blinds. you put up the same $ every time in the blinds and are getting the same odds to call/3bet a raise. its the opponent's range that is the deciding factor (and clearly his postflop play but we hold that constant b/c its the smae player)

[ QUOTE ]

I want to know if I should be calling someone's raise to "take a flop" when I have 45s in the Big Blind in a longhanded game...

[/ QUOTE ]

for the most part hell [censored] yea if you play well post flop and can read hands and are against a steal raise. 54s is a great hand getting 3.5:1 closing the action. that is the lowest id go w/ the suited connectors though.

T9o is another decent call against a player in a steal position (CO or BU) that if he doesn't play great after the flop i'll call.

[ QUOTE ]

how about J9o...do I call?
How about 109o or 108o? Should I 3 bet the guy with A4s? or 66?

[/ QUOTE ]

the answer is it depends. like i said above T9o is a decent defense hand. you have to see this from the right point of view. its not that you're posting the blinds often that makes you defend more. its that the players raising range has widened and 3.5:1 now are long odds vs. that range if you know he isn't great postflop. if he DOES play very well postflop you need to shorten those odds and tighten your range.

this is a very important question you asked and its crucial to understand why things change in a shorthanded setting, not just that they change.

[ QUOTE ]

I just read Ed Miller's article on SH play on his new website (which is why I know you have to act crazily to defend you BB in a SH game...) - so I'm not taking any real credit for knowing this...lol

[/ QUOTE ]

i have yet to read this article but if it doesn't go into WHY you need to defend more in a shorthanded setting beyond "you post your blinds more" then the article probably needs some tweaking. not saying ed isn't a great poker writer because he is just that. he may just need to polish the article a bit for his audience (again, i haven't read the article but i know ed and he's a great writer so he may have been writing amore introductory text on blind defense to get you thinking correctly not wanting to go into the intricacies of metagame hand range changes of crooks or other such things.) but i will read the article when i get a chance and report back to alter my possibly incorrect statements above or add more to them.

[ QUOTE ]

I also lose whenever I play shorthanded...no doubt because of my lack of knowledge on which hands to defend my big blind with/which hands to 3 bet with out of the BB...

[/ QUOTE ]

preflop is a start. but postflop is more important. some players bloat the pot preflop and on the flop to cause very very bad folds on the turn and river and vice versa (they keep the pot small to cause large mistakes on big bet streets). understanding shorthanded preflop is a start, but postflop is really where the money is.

i'll also state something here ive talked about a bit with a few people. i think the real money is to be made on the river in a shorthanded game, not the turn, which has been noted previously (i forget where). given the current state of holdem, river decisions can cost a lot and make a lot. in a shorthanded game, using correct river strategy given previous hands and your knowledge of the opponent's knowledge of metagame considerations will yield more money than the same knowledge and expert turn play imo.

this, however, is clearly up for debate.

Barron

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

wow, what a reply. Thank you very much.

[ QUOTE ]
YOU are in the HJ, CO, and BU more often in a shorthanded game. these positional advantages mitigate the loss you take from posting so often in the blinds. think of the more frequent posting as a charge to be in the best positions more often.

[/ QUOTE ]

the above quote is fascinating and I have never thought of this...

So you are saying that you should be defending your Big Blind more often in a
shorthanded game because your opponents are raising lighter, not because of the fact you post them more. So, if your opponents are not raising lighter in
a SH game (which is almost NEVER the case, correct?), then you should be
folding your Big Blind a lot, just the same as much as you should/would be folding it in a LongHanded game.

but, I observe my opponents in shorthand raising each and every hand (at least 1 guy in the HJ, CO, or BU raises just about every hand! - they can't have a big hand everytime around, so therefore, they tend to be raising lighter on average, so you should be defending
your BB more in SH because of your opponent's behavior here, and NOT because
"you post the blinds more often." Is this what you are saying???

It sounds to me like you are saying (and attaching a lot more importance on)
you have to peg individual opponents
on their own style of play/get inside each and every one of your opponents' heads and know exactly how they play (what they'll raise with and how they play post-flop), and base your decision to defend on that...
(sorry, but I have to reluctant to admit that I am not that good of a poker player yet to be able to do this... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

So if you are up against a raise from a tight wad in the same position, the CO, let's say...regardless of whether it's a full game or a SH game, you are telling me to put him on the same exact range of hands and to defend with my same range?

What if you know that your opponent WILL fold his hand if he doesn't hit a flop and you raise him.
Wouldn't it be correct to defend your Big Blind with 72o and raise him on the flop
100% of the time and see if he folded?

Also, what does the term "metagame" mean? Does this mean/refer to total game/your table image, etc.? (i.e., you might play a hand like a fish
early in a session if you
think your opponents will take notice and pay you off a lot later in the night???).

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

holy f*ing shite!

I just got it...that you should view shorthand as a Longhanded game with the early and middle positions just removed from the table, as if those seats were just cut-out...and then play exactly as if you were at the same 10- seat table, right?

Or am I totally wrong...

So, according to this view, there is no early pos. in SH, and there is no middle pos. in SH (maybe only 1 spot, UTG in a SH game...).
there's only Late pos. and the blinds and you should play it the same as if you were
at the LongHanded tables?

please tell me this thinking is correct

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

[ QUOTE ]
holy f*ing shite!

I just got it...that you should view shorthand as a Longhanded game with the early and middle positions just removed from the table, as if those seats were just cut-out...and then play exactly as if you were at the same 10- seat table, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

basically yes.

however, you HAVE TO REALIZE that some people play looser in the exact same situation in SH games than in full games. this means their range widens and so should yours. if the player in question plays the same so should you.

you must pay attention to hands shown down, where the player raised from pf and the action he gave postflop.

[ QUOTE ]


Or am I totally wrong...

So, according to this view, there is no early pos. in SH, and there is no middle pos. in SH (maybe only 1 spot, UTG in a SH game...).
there's only Late pos. and the blinds and you should play it the same as if you were
at the LongHanded tables?

please tell me this thinking is correct

[/ QUOTE ]

it is for the most part correct but you have to be able to recognize who is playing looser and more aggressive and who is player exactly the same and what that implies for how you should play.

Barron

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

Just to add that Ed is probably right sometimes..... (I haven't read the article either). Some games become increasingly tilty and over-aggressive when they go short-handed, and you therefore have to make read-dependant adaptations. Other short games play much more like full-ring where the first few players have folded, and you therefore are playing a somewhat similar defence strategy.

For example, someone who was stealing on the button with 40% when it was full-ring is now stealing with 60%, and you can therefore widen your defense/3-bet range.

I think the confusion comes from the fact that you are NOT widening your defense range purely because the game has gone short-handed, you are widening your defense range because some players are now stealing with increasingly trashy hands.

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

read ed's article again. he explains this very clearly and you just missed it. His article is top notch and even mentions the bunching effect!

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

I am a proven winner at Longhand and thats what I know how to play...
the big thing for me was to just realize how I should be adapting my
successful play there to be successful at SH...

I also am unsure of how to properly/correctly defend my Big Blind (in both Longhand and SH)...

I am most concerned with my thinking/thought processes/how I should be approaching the SH
games, and wow - it hit me like a ton of bricks when you guys
were saying I should be playing the SH games just the same at I would in the same Late Positions as
I would in the Longhanded games...no different. Not at all. I shouldn't even be trying to
steal with trashy hands myself, because most opponents will have widened defense ranges, so
therefore, in that type game (which is most SH games out there),
I would gain no benefit by trying to steal with "increasingly trashy" hands myself. I should, as said before, simply be attempting steals WITH THE SAME EXACT HANDS THAT I WOULD IN
A LONGHANDED GAME IN THE SAME POSITIONS OF THE HJ, CO, AND BUTTON.
This is profoundly correct thinking in my opinion, thinking in which I had not previously considered...

the 2nd adjustment I should be making (which Ed really points out in his article) is
to defend my BIG BLIND "tenaciously." And to be doing this because my opponents
(in the typical SH game that's out there) have incorrectly widened their steal range, and NOT because the
blinds are posted more often (this fact is irrelevant and should be
thought of as "the price you pay for getting to be in the advantageous late positions of the HJ, CO, and BU more often" as BArron said.
Ed also said that although you post your blinds more often, you have more "equity" in them each time...
(and, although I'm not totally sure here, I believe the REASON FOR THIS
is because of the incorrect play of the typical SH opponent (that causes you to adapt and defend more) and not because you post them
more often...Pls. correct me here if wrong...

I know that doing these 2 things will make me a significant SH winner.
I haven't put these into practice yet, I just know they'll work...

Please correct any of the above if I'm wrong - I wanted to summarize it and type it back to you guys to make sure I understand this properly...before I hit the tables and try it!
(if it works I owe you guys who responded a beer...no...a full dinner! lol)

1 more follow up question about "defending." (which, as I just learned, if your opponents are playing SH correctly and not widening their steal range in the SH game, would be the same as for SH as it is for Longhand...).

Ed mentioned to 3 bet a steal raiser with hands that have "showdown value."
What hands would these be...pretty sure they are:

1.) any pocket pair
2.) any ace
3.) anything else?

And pls. comment on what I said about the 72o...if you KNOW a player is weak post flop, and WILL fold if he misses the flop (if he has an AQ or AK/2 big cards OR if he has 10s and 2 overcards flop, etc....he's a tight wad) AND
you raise him, does it make it correct to ALWAYS take a flop against this guy?
(when he raises your Big Blind and you have not even looked at your cards?)

(once you start doing this, he should catch on and adapt, but we'll assume he wont't and is a tight-wad ABC player who "only plays HIS cards" for the purposes of answering the question...)

Thanks again,

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

you are getting there. Maybe barron wants to handle this one. I will be doing some limited coaching starting in december, and need to save some of my teaching energy for that!

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

[ QUOTE ]
read ed's article again. he explains this very clearly and you just missed it. His article is top notch and even mentions the bunching effect!

[/ QUOTE ]

link me... i still haven'y read it

thanks

Barron

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are getting there. Maybe barron wants to handle this one. I will be doing some limited coaching starting in december, and need to save some of my teaching energy for that!

[/ QUOTE ]

you're coaching? but im not even done teaching you yet!!! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

well i'll tackle ilbb's latest post when i get back from the GYM [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ... thats right stox, the doc said i can workout finally (but only on the eliptical machine...so i'll look like a girl till i can run again)!

-Barron

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

try not to break the other ankle.

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles.htm

is this the site? It has some links to interesting radio interviews too.

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am a proven winner at Longhand and thats what I know how to play...

[/ QUOTE ]

there's the first possible error in logic. how many hands? what win rate? what limit? lets say for instance that you have 100,000 hands at 1 bb/100 with a st.dev of 15bb/100 and you want the 95% confidence interval of your win rate its between 1.9297bb/100 and .0703bb/100.

now if you only have 50,000 hands its between 2.3148bb/100 and -.31478.

similarly, if you have 100k hands at 1bb/100 and your st.dev/100 (found in poker tracker under the sessions tab click "more detail") is 17.5bb/100 then your winrate is between 2.0846bb/100 and -.08464bb/100. this means that YOU CAN STILL BE A LOSING PLAYER EVEN THOUGH YOU'VE WON AT 1BB/100 FOR 100,000 HANDS!

so if you dont want to disclose it to the forum you can PM me your info and i can calculate your range or you do it yoruself and i'l tell you how.

the point is that you are NOT a proven winner. period. im not a proven winner (its just extremely unlikely my wr is negative-i.e. i need to turn my confidence interval up to .999999 for it to be negative meaning i want to be 99.9999% sure of my win rate range. and even then its a MASSIVE range)

[ QUOTE ]

the big thing for me was to just realize how I should be adapting my
successful play there to be successful at SH...

I also am unsure of how to properly/correctly defend my Big Blind (in both Longhand and SH)...

I am most concerned with my thinking/thought processes/how I should be approaching the SH
games, and wow - it hit me like a ton of bricks when you guys
were saying I should be playing the SH games just the same at I would in the same Late Positions as
I would in the Longhanded games...no different. Not at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are still thinking to strictly. you SHOULD play different IF YOUR OPPONENTS play different. poker is a game of exploitation of mistakes. you first need to recognize the mistakes your opponents make and then capitalize on them. if they raise too much, you defend more frequently taking the larger odds.

[ QUOTE ]

I shouldn't even be trying to
steal with trashy hands myself, because most opponents will have widened defense ranges, so
therefore, in that type game (which is most SH games out there),
I would gain no benefit by trying to steal with "increasingly trashy" hands myself. I should, as said before, simply be attempting steals WITH THE SAME EXACT HANDS THAT I WOULD IN
A LONGHANDED GAME IN THE SAME POSITIONS OF THE HJ, CO, AND BUTTON.

[/ QUOTE ]

unless yoru opponents are very bad or very good. if they are very bad you want to play more hands (just not the ones you mentioned...72o is just horrible. period.) because you will make more correct decision vs. the bad players (players who do far far far to much of one action and far far far to little of another). similarly, against VERY GOOD players, you need to show that you can gamble so that they cannot put you on a narrow range. i like small suited connectors for this purpose (for some reason 74s seems to work well [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ... but mostly 54s is as low as you should go) because that adds just enough variability to make it hard to tell what i have because i play almost all those hands very aggressively. but you also have to know when to put on the brakes and check behind a flop, or turn. or take a free river showdown, etc. etc.

point is you should look at what your opponents do and create a strategy to exploit them AND THEN BE CONSTANTLY WARY OF YOUR OPPONENTS' REACTION TO YOUR CHANGE. you must be willing to adjust quickly.

[ QUOTE ]

This is profoundly correct thinking in my opinion, thinking in which I had not previously considered...

the 2nd adjustment I should be making (which Ed really points out in his article) is
to defend my BIG BLIND "tenaciously." And to be doing this because my opponents
(in the typical SH game that's out there) have incorrectly widened their steal range, and NOT because the
blinds are posted more often (this fact is irrelevant and should be
thought of as "the price you pay for getting to be in the advantageous late positions of the HJ, CO, and BU more often" as BArron said.
Ed also said that although you post your blinds more often, you have more "equity" in them each time...
(and, although I'm not totally sure here, I believe the REASON FOR THIS
is because of the incorrect play of the typical SH opponent (that causes you to adapt and defend more) and not because you post them
more often...Pls. correct me here if wrong...

[/ QUOTE ]

thats interesting that ed said you have more equity in your blinds...i honestly dont know to what he's referring. i guess i need to read that article. usually during an analysis you hold variables constant and then alter them slightly and see the results (or theorize on the expected results). so if the players skill and hand selection is held constant and the # of players goes from 10 to 5, your equity in the blinds should be the same /time you post your blind. i may be wrong but i can't see it right now.

[ QUOTE ]

I know that doing these 2 things will make me a significant SH winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the most incorrect thing you've said. and its not even remotely close. preflop strategy will in most games SH make you a small winner IF THAT. if you play mediocre postflop the best you can hope for is to be a small winner but likely will be a decent sized loser. if you play preflop perfectly (which i dont even do), AND play postflop decent, you'll probably be a small winner. what makes you a BIG winner is playing postflop excellently and preflop anywhere from OK to perfect. you are likely right now anywhere from big loser to small winner.

[ QUOTE ]

I haven't put these into practice yet, I just know they'll work...

[/ QUOTE ]

that remains to be seen.

[ QUOTE ]

Please correct any of the above if I'm wrong - I wanted to summarize it and type it back to you guys to make sure I understand this properly...before I hit the tables and try it!

[/ QUOTE ]

if i were you id start at .5/1.00 or some low limit where you can really see very obvious mistakes made and be sure you can adjust to those mistakes quickly.

[ QUOTE ]

(if it works I owe you guys who responded a beer...no...a full dinner! lol)

[/ QUOTE ]

you'll owe me much much much much more than that if it works (read: if you execute concepts correctly and accurately, dont tilt and put in the hours) [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

1 more follow up question about "defending." (which, as I just learned, if your opponents are playing SH correctly and not widening their steal range in the SH game, would be the same as for SH as it is for Longhand...).

[/ QUOTE ]

if opponents do not change their defending requirements and their defending requirements are correct, you should not change your (presumably correct) stealing requirements.

[ QUOTE ]

Ed mentioned to 3 bet a steal raiser with hands that have "showdown value."
What hands would these be...pretty sure they are:

1.) any pocket pair
2.) any ace
3.) anything else?

[/ QUOTE ]

far far far to general a statement. showdown value could include kings as well if your opponent is too loose...but youmay not often be going to the SD.

[ QUOTE ]

And pls. comment on what I said about the 72o...if you KNOW a player is weak post flop, and WILL fold if he misses the flop (if he has an AQ or AK/2 big cards OR if he has 10s and 2 overcards flop, etc....he's a tight wad) AND
you raise him, does it make it correct to ALWAYS take a flop against this guy?(when he raises your Big Blind and you have not even looked at your cards?)

(once you start doing this, he should catch on and adapt, but we'll assume he wont't and is a tight-wad ABC player who "only plays HIS cards" for the purposes of answering the question...)



[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely not. too many ANDs and IFs.


[ QUOTE ]

Thanks again,

[/ QUOTE ]

whew, that was a lot of work, but my foot (stox, its been located as my fibial sesamoid bone under the ball of my foot) feels good so i feel good so...

...you are welcome...but im expecting a large check from you in the future.

-Barron

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

great response barron.

one point - you have additional equity in the BB shorthanded for the simple reason the hands against you are on average worse. put simply, there is a much better chance someone has AA 10 handed than 6 handed. However, your equity in the situation of a CO raise vs you HU, should be the same, regardless of how many are at the table, assuming CO standards are constant.

you should also find that winrates in the blinds are directly correlated to number of players at the table, with the extreme example being heads-up vs 10 handed.

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

just to add to that, In Ed's article he points out that opponents sometimes DO behave differently, due to the fallacy of the 'blinds coming around faster, so you have to play more hands'. so it could be correct to defend more in a shorthanded game versus a raise from the same position because your opponents overadjust to the shorthanded-ness.

not sure if someone has mentioned that aspect yet but it was in ed's article IIRC (haven't read it in a while) so I thought that was interesting.

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

THIS THREAD HAS TO BE THE BEST I HAVE READ FOR A LONG TIME. VERY GOOD JOB DcifrThs and ilovebadteats... and the others.

- Kenny

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just read Ed Miller's article on SH play on his new website

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the URL for Ed Miller's website?

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

[ QUOTE ]
THIS THREAD HAS TO BE THE BEST I HAVE READ FOR A LONG TIME. VERY GOOD JOB DcifrThs and ilovebadteats... and the others.

- Kenny

[/ QUOTE ]

i love bad *what?*

lol

-ilovebadbeats

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

[ QUOTE ]
great response barron.

one point - you have additional equity in the BB shorthanded for the simple reason the hands against you are on average worse. put simply, there is a much better chance someone has AA 10 handed than 6 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

see thats the thing. we're holding players constant and talking about late position play. a very tight player raising UTG then yes its more likely he has AA than if that same very tight player raises HJ,CO,BU so i see what you're getting at there. but look at what could happen on average at 10 handed tables, your HU equity there is worse, but you're often going to take flops getting 7.5:1 which gives your worse hands a compensation for the equity loss of being against better hands on average. i think i need to read this damn ed miller article and take a step back to analyze. but the question is: "does the increased odds you get at full handed tables compensate you enough for the higher quality of the hands you're against?" given your final point, clearly the answer is no.

[ QUOTE ]

However, your equity in the situation of a CO raise vs you HU, should be the same, regardless of how many are at the table, assuming CO standards are constant.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was my point exactly.

[ QUOTE ]

you should also find that winrates in the blinds are directly correlated to number of players at the table, with the extreme example being heads-up vs 10 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

when you are playing HU, assuming you have the same skill edge vs. the players in a 10 handed game, you will be generating more marginal situations and increasing your variance and expectation. it just happens to be that you're doing so while posting so yes your win rate should be higher vs. the posting of a bb at a 10 handed table. theres other stuff there too but i need to again think more about it.

Barron

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

i am really grateful for your replies - thank you, and like another said here below, I hope others reading this post here on 2 + 2 get something out of this also,

About the proven winner thing, I get what you are saying. But
I wasn't speaking in terms of a pure absolutes...I wanted to really emphasize
that i have 10,000s times more experience (and hands logged in)in LongHand as I do in SH.
I have only dabbled in SH and pretty much lose every time I do...
1 time I ran good and shot up a ton of big bets really fast so I can see how much fun it can be!
I know I am a winning longHand player IF I am playing in good games (i.e., bad opponents)
(i.e., opponents who are worse than me...lol And I am able to recognize when this is the case).
I need to
"take my game to the next level" and get good at aggressive games, battling it out Heads Up (at a 10 handed table when you and only 1 (or 2) other guy(s) go to a flop - and the guy is aggressive...i have trouble here and I know I am not aggressive enough back AND i know I must lay down too often...(I also, however, know that my opponents know this, so I really PUNISH them when I do make a hand to make up for my weakness here, but I am sure I
do not make enough back to make up for my bad and "weak" HU play).
So, as a result, I tend to shy away from these Blind battles and aggressive HU confrontations, b/c I know I am "weak" here...I need to fill in this hole.

to play (i.e., win at) higher limits and at SH I ahve been told that you must master these
situations:
HU and 3 way battles,
Blind Wars, etc.

To me, this type of aggressive poker is difficult.

I first learned to play poker and to be a big winner in loose games in which all you have to do is play decently pre flop, and to draw when you have correct odds post flop. If you raise and get re-raised, call-down (unless you have the nuts, then cap - simple).
Call down with strong made hands I mean, like a made flush or 2 pair incl. top pair, etc. - I don't mean ALWAYS call down when raised, b/c that's one of the fastest ways to lose Big Bets! lol
My opponents would always pay me off when I raised or bet in these games, so I became profitable by just playing in loose games, drawing with odds, etc.
Thinning the field the best I could with big pairs/2 big cards, and taking flops
cheaply and preferably in late position with multi-way hands
(Axs, ppk. pairs, suited connectors and 1 gappers, and connectors like 910, 10J, etc.).
This is "easy poker" and now I realize I am not that great of a player after all - despite winning lots of money...
It kinda makes me sad,
as I thought I was so great for winning all this money...but I was, in fact, just being patient (with an OK understanding of pre-flop hand selection and position), drawing correctly within the odds, and getting paid off by calling station opponents...oh and folding a lot to stay out of trouble/un-profitable situations...

Many players must experience this, as they start out at low limits and then work their way up to hit
a "wall."
Well, I must say I am ready to take my game to the next level, not just playing my cards, but
playing based on what I think my opponent may have and how I have seen him previously act with
the hand that I think he has...(when you multiply the probabilities that you are correct about each, the num. gets smaller, correct, so you have to have some good accuracy in your predictions for them to help you!)
But,
in those loose games where you get paid off 100% of the time when you hit (and bluffing is absolutely futile), YES, I am a proven winner.

Another fascinating idea were are hitting on: the cards themselves
don't really matter...HOW YOUR INDIVIDUAL OPPONENTS PLAY THEM IS WHAT MATTERS, as 1 guy may play
a big ppk. pair 1 way while another guy may play it differently.
Not only must we first put our opponent on a hand, we must recall how
we think they would act with that hand we put them on based on our previous memory/experiences we have
had with them...
(which is why it's so crucial to pay attention to showdowns to see you opponent's hole cards even when you're not in the hand...recalling how he acted with what he showed down/the previous betting action). This is something I am sad to admit I
don't really do...

To take this leap in skill it seems to me that you must have all the other stuff so down pat it's like breathing for you (pre flop hand selection, odds and probabilities for EVERYTHING, etc.).
If you have the odds for all limits and probability tables burned into your head and
can access all the info. instantly, then you are only 1/2 way there...

I love this game.

When I said i know these things will make me a winner at SH is because I have a lot of the other stuff
you are assuming that I don't have - I do play post flop well...(though I suck when guys start to get aggressive with me HU b/c I then can't read them (on that hand or on future hands, I begin to make mistakes, and I in general begin to panic and get thrown off of my game...or worse...I begin to pay them off all the time to see their cards, most of the time thinking
that I have the best hand AND most of THESE times that's exactly what they want me to do...lol)

I am (i have just cleared this up though, lol) really screwed up when it comes to pre flop play short handed...I was (before this thread)
raising with all kinds of crap myslef in the HJ, CO, and BU in a SH game - stuff I'd NEVER be raising with in the
same positions in a Longhanded game - NEVER!
Ugh!
It makes me sick to re-call my play in previous sessions where I was under the false impression that I was *correctly*
raising pre flop shorthanded. I want to vomit I suck so bad.

Also my defending is a tad off...the No. 1 determinent of which should be
my assessment of my opponent's play post flop and of what I think he could be raising with pre-flop (his range) a close second...
(this (the big Blind defense discussion) applies the same to both SH and
Longhanded...)
But needs to be tweaked because of the errors 90% of the poker playing population makes
playing shorthanded...

I want to get the thought processes in my head that you pros who are better than I have...I want to start "thinking" more correctly ...

the lowest I will try my SH strategy will be $2/4 limit and I don't care how much i lose (but I know I'll win). Anything less is not even for money really.
lol
feast away on my last comment, but I do feel that playing 1/2 or 50 cent/$1 is Kid's stuff, not poker for money.
So I can't really take it seriously and I just feel like I'm wasting my time even if I win...
Maybe I could 12 table 1/2$ and that would motivate me... lol

<font color="yellow"> YELLOW</font>

(random color insertion)

losing my mind at the moment, but to lastly comment on the 72o scenario,
i get your point...But MY point is, is that if you know that you can "own" your opponent/control him post flop and on the flip side read him well and make the folds when you should, then you should be
much more
likely to take him on HU and with a wider variety of hands...

I don't even have PokerTracker (or anything else) so I can't send you any of my data or give you my win rate, etc.
Should I
"stop everything" and get PT?

Thanks Barron 'n stox, Joe M.

Re: defending you Big Blind in a 10 or 9 seat full ring game...
 

Mr. Ed