AQo, monotone flop.
 

Going through hands from a bad session. Button is a 50/12, somewhat aggressive over 24 hands. UTG is 31/4.5 loose passive.

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (7.70 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, Button folds.

River: (9.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.70 BB

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

bet/call or c/c river. pot is big enough.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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bet/call or c/c river. pot is big enough.

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No. Hero clarked the turn, and it didn't phase villain. He's got a flush way too often here to consider calling.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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bet/call or c/c river. pot is big enough.

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I don't think he ever bets a hand I beat here on a 4-flush board. Certainly not 10% of the time.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

Weird hand. I'm not sure if I like the turn donk yet. I think checking and seeing what happens may be our best option. If UTG bets then I think we can safely muck. If button bets we can just call and then donk the river.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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Weird hand. I'm not sure if I like the turn donk yet. I think checking and seeing what happens may be our best option. If UTG bets then I think we can safely muck. If button bets we can just call and then donk the river.

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This was my biggest question as well. I wondered if I might get button to fold a better hand. I'm thinking any set calls, 2 pair may call, AK probably folds.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

Either you guys are seriously misunderstanding this Clark thing or I am. This seems retarded. Anyone have a link from his original "work"?

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

I heard clark was a heads up thing.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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Weird hand. I'm not sure if I like the turn donk yet. I think checking and seeing what happens may be our best option. If UTG bets then I think we can safely muck. If button bets we can just call and then donk the river.

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This was my biggest question as well. I wondered if I might get button to fold a better hand. I'm thinking any set calls, 2 pair may call, AK probably folds.

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I don't think betting this to try to get AK to fold is a good idea. First of all, it will often still call down. Secondly, he will have the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] occasionally as well. And we still have UTG to worry about.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

This looks fine against an LPP. The turn is bet/fold I assume?

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

I like 3-betting the flop. This might get UTG to fold a baby [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. If UTG calls 2 more cold and button calls, I'm sure at least one of them has a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. If UTG calls and button caps, you know you're behind there already or he's jamming the pot with a big [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

It seems like your best play here is to re-raise with your pot equity advantage, to more clearly define where you're at, and to try to fold weak flush draws.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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I heard clark was a heads up thing.

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and the fourth flush card has to come on the river.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

3bet the flop, button will often have a weak ace/PP and UTG will have to face 2 cold(If he calls i assume flush draw and will most likly C/f the turn).

If utg folds, bet the turn and C/c the river HU vs button(I think he may bluff it).

As you played it, C/f the turn to agression from UTG IMO.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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bet/call or c/c river. pot is big enough.

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I don't think he ever bets a hand I beat here on a 4-flush board. Certainly not 10% of the time.

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I disagree with this. Even very passive players recognize that this is an obvious bluffing situation. And I also think that such players are capable of calling a bet without the flush. I vote for bet/fold.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

Sometimes I would just call preflop especially if I think my raise will not knock out UTG.

Pinlifter

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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Sometimes I would just call preflop especially if I think my raise will not knock out UTG.

Pinlifter

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We don't care about knocking people out, we care about getting money in with the best hand.

I don't like the turn donk either. There's no real read on the 50VPIP guy, so he's basically unknown. I c/c the turn and probably c/f the river if UTG overcalls the turn.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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We don't care about knocking people out, we care about getting money in with the best hand.

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Thats one dimensional thinking. First, AQo doesn't make a ton of money preflop so your not giving up much by calling.

Second, Villian is only somewhat aggressive and he is raising a caller. He's not raising with a random hand. Often you will be dominated in which case a call actually saves you money.

Third, You should want to play this hand heads up preflop as UTGs money is more valuable to you dead than it is alive. If thats not possible you will likely want to get it heads up once the flop comes(easier to do if you just call preflop). However, if you flop a monster you will probably not want to give away your holding until a later more expensive street.

Raise preflop if there is a very good chance it will get you heads up, otherwise call.

Pinlifter

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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Thats one dimensional thinking. First, AQo doesn't make a ton of money preflop so your not giving up much by calling.

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AQ makes a ton of money when you're up against one nearly random hand and a second, slightly-less-random hand.
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Second, Villian is only somewhat aggressive and he is raising a caller.

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Villian is unknown. We have a stat read over less than 25 hands, and no table reads. That makes him an unknown. We can all find stretches where we've run something like 50/25 over that short a time.
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He's not raising with a random hand. Often you will be dominated in which case a call actually saves you money.

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Not totally random, but it could be close. There's no way you can put him on a range of AA-JJ, AK-AQ to say that "often" we'll be dominated. This could be AA-66, AK-A9, AKs-A8s, KQ-KTs, who knows? I think we are ahead the vast majority of the time here.

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Third, You should want to play this hand heads up preflop as UTGs money is more valuable to you dead than it is alive. If thats not possible you will likely want to get it heads up once the flop comes(easier to do if you just call preflop).

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UTG is loose and passive, and will pay us off on many streets when we hit our hand. We can't be scared of him sucking out on us.
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However, if you flop a monster you will probably not want to give away your holding until a later more expensive street.

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If the flop comes AQQ or something like that, a flop c/r (as you advocate) will shut our opponents down as quickly as a 3bet/lead. Possibly even more, as a lead is seen as just continuation, where a c/r screams "I have an A minimum!"

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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Either you guys are seriously misunderstanding this Clark thing or I am. This seems retarded. Anyone have a link from his original "work"?

[/ QUOTE ]I heard clark was a heads up thing.

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I believe it is. The basic idea of Clarkmeister's Theorum is that you should be betting most of the time heads up on the river when OOP and the 4th flush card comes. You will often get better hands to fold. Also by not betting you will often be calling bets from better hands where worse hands have the option to check behind taking a free showdown. Even a non-nut flush is going to have a hard time raising your bet.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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Not totally random, but it could be close. There's no way you can put him on a range of AA-JJ, AK-AQ to say that "often" we'll be dominated. This could be AA-66, AK-A9, AKs-A8s, KQ-KTs, who knows? I think we are ahead the vast majority of the time here.

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I completely agree. Against many opponents I would say it's even wider, this is very often an isolation raise. AQo is a big hand shorthanded.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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This looks fine against an LPP. The turn is bet/fold I assume?

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Yes this is the last of my money going in.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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bet/call or c/c river. pot is big enough.

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I don't think he ever bets a hand I beat here on a 4-flush board. Certainly not 10% of the time.

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I disagree with this. Even very passive players recognize that this is an obvious bluffing situation. And I also think that such players are capable of calling a bet without the flush. I vote for bet/fold.

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I'm not sure that a passive player is going to be looking for a bluffing situation here. Most bluffs are going to be hands like missed draws and the major draw here already hit on the turn. If he has a medium strength hand I think he checks behind to see if he won.

I'm also not sure I like the idea of investing 2 more BB once the 4-flush comes as at some point I have to give the player credit for a hand and I am just giving him money.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

I'm not sure that you can do anything differently. Save that sometimes I'll just call pf here and c/r the flop, which in this case might lead to more information, maybe...

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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I don't like the turn donk either. There's no real read on the 50VPIP guy, so he's basically unknown. I c/c the turn and probably c/f the river if UTG overcalls the turn.

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This is pretty much what I was wondering. The plan for this hand was to lead the flop, call a button raise and lead a safe turn. Of course a non-safe turn came but I thought checking might be granting the button license to steal... then again it is a dangerous board.

I think 3-betting the flop here is interesting as if UTG calls 2 more there's a good chance he has at least a strong flush draw, so it might make the turn play more straightforward here.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

I like a flop 3-bet here, as it gives UTG the same odds as a turn donk would. We may be able to get UTG to fold a small club, and I think the bet has immediate value. If you decide to wait and donk the turn (which I probably would have done as well), I think you have to check and fold when the 4th club drops. You're beat too often here IMO, and UTG most likely isn't going anywhere if he holds a small club.

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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AQ makes a ton of money when you're up against one nearly random hand and a second, slightly-less-random hand.


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Against 2 random hands the raise earns you a little less than a small bet(AQo equity is ~45%). Against a random hand and one hand in the range of AA-66, AK-A9, AKs-A8s, KQ-KTs the pre-flop raise earns you a little more than 2/3 of a small bet(AQo equity is ~38%). Of course the actual amount a flop raise will earn you is less because sometimes the UTG will fold.

For the sake of this argument, I'm willing to stipulate the preflop raise is worth ~2/3 of a small bet. While not a paltry amount it is certainly not "a ton" and can easily be made up with a raise/check raise on a more expensive street. It can also be made up by strategically playing the flop with the intent to increase pot equity. You have a lot more flexibility in playing your hand post flop if you just call preflop.

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UTG is loose and passive, and will pay us off on many streets when we hit our hand. We can't be scared of him sucking out on us.


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If this guy is a gold mine in the hand why risk driving him out with a preflop raise that might only be worth 2/3 of a small bet. I'd like to see him gone, but its apparent you do not. I want to know why then you would risk driving him out.

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If the flop comes AQQ or something like that, a flop c/r (as you advocate) will shut our opponents down as quickly as a 3bet/lead. Possibly even more, as a lead is seen as just continuation, where a c/r screams "I have an A minimum!"

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Please point out where I advocate a flop checkraise when the hero flops a monster. I specifically said by calling preflop one can wait to a more expensive street(i.e. turn or river) before giving a hint about the strenghth of ones hand.

Pinlifter

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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I completely agree. Against many opponents I would say it's even wider, this is very often an isolation raise. AQo is a big hand shorthanded.

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I agree AQo is a big hand short handed. The more shorthanded it is the bigger AQo is. Heads up is as short as it gets and thats how you should want to play this hand. If you think your preflop raise will get you heads up that is obvisously the best play. Calling only starts to look better when you think a preflop raise will fail to get the hand heads up.

Pinlifter

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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If this guy is a gold mine in the hand why risk driving him out with a preflop raise that might only be worth 2/3 of a small bet.

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That's the whole point: it won't fold him out. He'll call pf regardless of whether its one or two back to him. "Waiting for a more expensive street," like facing him with two cold on the turn, is much more likely to drive him out.

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Please point out where I advocate a flop checkraise when the hero flops a monster. I specifically said by calling preflop one can wait to a more expensive street(i.e. turn or river) before giving a hint about the strenghth of ones hand.

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You'll make much more money 3betting pf and leading the whole way than you will flat calling and c/ring the turn. I did say flop c/r in my earlier post, but the same principle applies to the turn. You're going to get an immediate fold much more often with your c/r than you will early folds when you lead lead lead.

Just curious, do you flat call TT in this spot? JJ? 99? AQs? It really sounds like you're playing this with a mindset of avoiding difficult postflop decisions or suckouts instead of maximizing value.
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I'd like to see him gone

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

if you're going to donk a turn club, why not 3-bet the flop? I could see waiting if you were waiting for a non club to checkraise button, but when the club comes and you still bet, do you think UTG is more likely to fold that way?

Re: AQo, monotone flop.
 

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Just curious, do you flat call TT in this spot? JJ? 99? AQs?

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Sometimes I flat call, sometimes I raise. Almost always raise with JJ TT and AQs. A lot depends on my opponents.

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It really sounds like you're playing this with a mindset of avoiding difficult postflop decisions or suckouts instead of maximizing value.

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This false conclusion is due to your one dimensional thinking. Your thought process is stringent and single tracked(lead, lead, lead). I on the other hand consider multiple lines of play that are flexible enough to change as the hand unfolds.

Pinlifter