Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

I used to always limp with suited aces (A9 and below) but I am trying to get more aggressive. My like my first raise, but should I have capped? I think I should have. I so, please explain. Thanks.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, CO folds.

River: (13.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

Why do you like your first raise? Just curious.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

I always raise suited aces on the button, actually anything on the button if you're coming in you should be raising. I think I'd check the turn and take the free river, but betting is not a bad option either.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

unless you got some reads on UTG+1 I wouldn't think of capping. A8s is a nice hand but it doesn't look near as good to me after a limp reraise. The rest looks pretty standard. I might even take the free card on the turn.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
unless you got some reads on UTG+1 I wouldn't think of capping. A8s is a nice hand but it doesn't look near as good to me after a limp reraise. The rest looks pretty standard. I might even take the free card on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, I had a good read on UTG + 1. Very loose and loved to get tricky (78/13/.56). Often bluffed raised - wasn't really treatened by their limp-reraise.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I always raise suited aces on the button, actually anything on the button if you're coming in you should be raising.

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Yeah if you're coming in, but there are already three limpers. Is this a good raise??

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

If you've got a read on UTG+1, fine. I'd still just call the 3-bet. With two other callers, you're probably behind another ace and your best hope is to complete the nut flush.

Any other person does that UTG, I'm putting him on AA or KK, who is now looking to build a pot, drive people out, and take it down without a scary flop.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

Misreply? I'm talking about his first raise.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

I don't really like the first raise, nevermind capping. Aggressive play has it's merits, of course, but I have to believe that in the long run, raising with A8s is a losing proposition. Of course you hit your flush and got paid off, but how do you play when an Ace hits the flop and the pre-flop betting is capped? Suppose there's a bet ahead of you. With the huge pot you can't get away but the 8 is not exactly a strong kicker...

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

Why did you bet the turn?

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

do not cap this preflop. you just don't have equity against a 3-bettor.

the turn bet isn't horrible, but I think a check is better.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

Preflop is a bit weird, but not horrible.

I just call the flop, and raise the turn if I hit. Since you raised the flop, why didn't you take the free card?

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I always raise suited aces on the button, actually anything on the button if you're coming in you should be raising. I think I'd check the turn and take the free river, but betting is not a bad option either.

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I don't think this is a great idea. I don't like to raise hands like A7s and below when are very likely to be dominated. I don't mind a raise of A8s, and A7s is probably not a huge error. But hands like A5s and A2s are great for a limp.

What don't you like about limping on the button? You raise 55? Q9s? 76s? Keep in mind the difference between limping in LP and open limping in LP.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I always raise suited aces on the button, actually anything on the button if you're coming in you should be raising.

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Yeah if you're coming in, but there are already three limpers. Is this a good raise??

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It's not all that bad. It's likely to be slightly +ev if you play it right postflop. But the advice about never calling on the button is just plain wrong.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

I check the turn, but I play the rest the same. I don't always raise this preflop but I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

Rob

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I used to always limp with suited aces (A9 and below) but I am trying to get more aggressive. My like my first raise, but should I have capped? I think I should have. I so, please explain. Thanks.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (11.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, CO folds.

River: (13.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the preflop raise. I take the free turn card. I would suspect that you have little chance of winning by betting on the turn. Unless you had good reads? Another reason to check might be to induce a bluff from an aggressive opponent when the 3 heart appears. I might bet the turn against a totally weak-tight player that folds his AKtype hands on the turn too easily. I could make the best hand fold, but I also have lots of outs to beat AK.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

The pf raise/call is fine, but why are you betting the turn? You need all your pair outs to be live in addition to your flush outs if it's going to be +EV. Your hand has limited showdown strength UI so a free showdown is not worth the price. You will not take down this pot often enough for it to be a consideration.

Take your free card. It's tremendously valuable in this big pot. You do not want to spend a single penny more than you have to to see the river.

You have a talent for catching good river cards. I'd suggest keeping it up.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
unless you got some reads on UTG+1 I wouldn't think of capping. A8s is a nice hand but it doesn't look near as good to me after a limp reraise. The rest looks pretty standard. I might even take the free card on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I am thinking of raising or not depending on UTG+1. With 4 people already in I probably don't raise this - particularly if UTG+1 is tight. If UTG+1 is very loose I may. A9s I probably do. A7s is in the A-crap range for me and I definitely don't against this many players. Definitely limp in any Axs with this many limpers, though. A8s is six of this half a dozen of that - I think it is a wash or slightly +EV if you have observant opponents and they have to open their starting ranges for you (unlikely at this level).

Definitely not a cap - a LRR is generally a hand defining moment and you can feel reasonably confident that villain will turn over KK or AA at the end.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

The initial pre-flop raise here is bad, IMO. You've already got 4 callers in front of you, so your pre-flop equity is extremely marginal, esp. with people potentially limping in with bigger aces. ATs or better I'm raising (and capping, in this instance), but I just don't think we're strong enough here to do that. Pound the flop, but this is a clear-cut free card situation ont he turn. You have no chance to win this on the turn against all of those callers.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

Your raise isnt bad.

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You've already got 4 callers in front of you, so your pre-flop equity is extremely marginal

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A marginal edge is still an edge. Limping doesnt somehow negate hte fact that your ace is dominated. Taking control of the hand can only help in these situations, since people are more inclined to check, giving you free showdowns.

Don't cap PF. At that point, you can be quite sure that you dont have an equity edge.

Take the free card on the turn.

You dont have an edge, even if all 3 people call - and your hand stands almost no chance of taking it down unimproved. You also have nearly zero fold equity against 3 low limit players. There is also a chance that you can get checkraised.

On the plus side, you may have cleaned up your Ace outs against UTG+1. I dont think that's reason enough to bet the turn though.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The initial pre-flop raise here is bad, IMO. You've already got 4 callers in front of you, so your pre-flop equity is extremely marginal, esp. with people potentially limping in with bigger aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on your opponents. In SSH, Ed Miller says you can consider raising after limpers with A9s and A8s if you opponents are loose. If they are tight and aggressive, then limp. The OP didn't give any reads on his opponents.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

I think your initial raise is fine--especially since you have position. The LRR from UTG+1 changes things, so you need to just call. Everything else looks great--nice pot.

Didn't see the turn bet the first time--just check--even if everyone calls there is no edge here.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

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The initial pre-flop raise here is bad, IMO. You've already got 4 callers in front of you, so your pre-flop equity is extremely marginal, esp. with people potentially limping in with bigger aces.

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Depends on your opponents. In SSH, Ed Miller says you can consider raising after limpers with A9s and A8s if you opponents are loose. If they are tight and aggressive, then limp. The OP didn't give any reads on his opponents.

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I remember Miller saying this, but why? Also, it was a very loose table. Each limper &gt;= 45% flops.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

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The initial pre-flop raise here is bad, IMO. You've already got 4 callers in front of you, so your pre-flop equity is extremely marginal, esp. with people potentially limping in with bigger aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on your opponents. In SSH, Ed Miller says you can consider raising after limpers with A9s and A8s if you opponents are loose. If they are tight and aggressive, then limp. The OP didn't give any reads on his opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember Miller saying this, but why? Also, it was a very loose table. Each limper &gt;= 45% flops.

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I'd say it was because A8s is a speculative hand and with a loose table you won't lose too many of the limpers with a raise in late position. You will still have what you want with a speculative hand, a lot of people in the pot. But I've only been playing since April or so, so what do I know. :-)

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say it was because A8s is a speculative hand and with a loose table you won't lose too many of the limpers with a raise in late position. You will still have what you want with a speculative hand, a lot of people in the pot. But I've only been playing since April or so, so what do I know. :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

Anybody else? If you want to play your speculative hands in multiway pots and as cheaply as possible, why raise with A9s? Or is A9s such a strong "speculative" hand it is +EV to raise in LP with many limpers?

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

Guys, don't pay so much attention to the preflop raise. The turn is where the real mistake is.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

*grunch*

I think the way you played the hand is fine. You don't give any reads, but when I'm faced with a limp re-raise I usually won't feel good with your hand. I wouldn't cap here. Also, if you cap its possible that it may be checked to you on the flop. What you want with your draw is for UTG+1 to bet and you raise. If you totally miss the flop you can just dump it.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

There are 11.25 BB in the pot on the turn. It's checked around to Hero who bets. Assuming he has 8 outs (discounting the 4h) and 46 unknown cards, our drawing odds are 1:4.75. He bet 1BB into an 11.25BB pot for pot odds of 1:11.25. I think the pot is large enough to justify a bet on the turn and its not to force people out.

In a smaller pot, I might check the turn here, but that pot is huge now and it's likely to get shown down even when the case h appears. You can dump it when you miss the river and bet again when you improve.

I've read a few posts where people thought it was a mistake to bet here. Why is that?

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

It has to do with who has limped and what their likely range is. You know that nobody has liked their hand enough to raise. Your 8 kicker will often give you the best ace. You'll flop a flush draw about 1 time in 8.5. The hand is further strengthened by the times you flop two pair+ or some sort of straight draw. You'll often have at least a backdoor draw to help rescue you when you're dominated. You have position + iniative to help you maximize your profit post flop.

When you don't think your hand has a clear equity edge but you probably have enough implied odds to play it you obviously want to get in as cheaply as possible. When you don't know anything about the strength of your opponents' hands (because you're in early position) you're usually better off limping unless the table is such that you should be folding these sorts of hands or raising more than usual from ep.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

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Guys, don't pay so much attention to the preflop raise. The turn is where the real mistake is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Why are you not taking a free card on this turn? Are you trying to buy the pot right there versus three other players? Given that board, there are a number of straight and flush possibilities, most of which aren't folding. Also, no one with a 5 is folding, and it's unlikely that a 9 folds either. As for your equity, the 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] may give someone else a boat, and someone may also have a pocket pair, so it's highly unlikely that all nine [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s are good. The chances of winning by spiking an ace aren't very good considering your weak kicker, which wouldn't even play. You'd be looking at a split pot or nothing versus another ace. Pairing your 8 probably doesn't win the pot either.

There has been a lot of discussion about the preflop raise, but I'm really curious about OP's reasoning behind betting the turn rather than checking.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Guys, don't pay so much attention to the preflop raise. The turn is where the real mistake is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Why are you not taking a free card on this turn? Are you trying to buy the pot right there versus three other players? Given that board, there are a number of straight and flush possibilities, most of which aren't folding. Also, no one with a 5 is folding, and it's unlikely that a 9 folds either.

There has been a lot of discussion about the preflop raise, but I'm really curious about OP's reasoning behind betting the turn rather than checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, how about this (not that it justifies the bet, but just for arguments sake)...

To buy two (or more) more outs. Suppose AJ/AT of clubs stayed in on the flop with two over cards and a backdoor draw. Or what about T9 or 98? Couldn't a turn bet buy two or more outs? Is that justified in a 11+ BB pot if a better hand folds? Just a thought.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

I don't understand how this:

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There are 11.25 BB in the pot on the turn. It's checked around to Hero who bets. Assuming he has 8 outs (discounting the 4h) and 46 unknown cards, our drawing odds are 1:4.75. He bet 1BB into an 11.25BB pot for pot odds of 1:11.25.

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Results in this conclusion:

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I think the pot is large enough to justify a bet on the turn and its not to force people out.


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Could you further explain this?

There really isn't any value in betting the turn, with the possible exception of buying some ace outs. You really need a heart to win.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

and we'll get that heart about one in five times. We have an equity in this situation because we have a 1 in five chance of winning the pot and the bet on the turn only represents 1/12 of the pot. Its the same reason why we could pump the flush draw on the flop. Our equity in the situation hasn't decreased enough relative to the size of the pot.
On the flop we stood to win by the river about 1 in 3 times. On the turn, it's now about 1 in 5. The only difference is there's more money in the pot. If no one calls, we take it down UI. If everyone calls we still have a 1 in 5 chance of winning. Not to mention any bets we collect on the river.

Let me put it another way: Are you folding to a turn bet? Are you folding to a turn bet if you're potentially the only caller? If not, why aren't you betting?

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
and we'll get that heart about one in five times. We have an equity in this situation because we have a 1 in five chance of winning the pot and the bet on the turn only represents 1/12 of the pot. Its the same reason why we could pump the flush draw on the flop. Our equity in the situation hasn't decreased enough relative to the size of the pot.
On the flop we stood to win by the river about 1 in 3 times. On the turn, it's now about 1 in 5. The only difference is there's more money in the pot. If no one calls, we take it down UI. If everyone calls we still have a 1 in 5 chance of winning. Not to mention any bets we collect on the river.

Let me put it another way: Are you folding to a turn bet? Are you folding to a turn bet if you're potentially the only caller? If not, why aren't you betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I think there are a few problems in your logic here, I'll try to sort them out.

First off, I think you're saying that putting a bet in on the turn gives you 11:1 odds while your odds of hitting are 4:1. This is wrong. You use pot odds to determine whether you would call a bet or not. For example, on the turn if someone ahead of you bet you'd be getting 12:1 on a 4:1 draw, so of course you call.

The concept of pumping a flush draw focuses on how many callers you'll get, not the size of the pot.

So on the turn, why would you put in one bet (when you most likely won't take it down UI, and you won't get enough callers to make betting your draw profitable) when you could just check and see the river for free? Especially since you're closing the action.

Folding to a bet on the turn is ridiculously unprofitable, but in most cases (including this one), so is betting, though maybe less so. The correct play here is to check. What it comes down to is the fact that betting the turn here is -EV.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We have an equity in this situation because we have a 1 in five chance of winning the pot and the bet on the turn only represents 1/12 of the pot. Its the same reason why we could pump the flush draw on the flop. Our equity in the situation hasn't decreased enough relative to the size of the pot.
On the flop we stood to win by the river about 1 in 3 times. On the turn, it's now about 1 in 5. The only difference is there's more money in the pot. If no one calls, we take it down UI. If everyone calls we still have a 1 in 5 chance of winning. Not to mention any bets we collect on the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

I see where the thought process came from, but you really have several concepts jumbled here, and the result is kind of a mess.

We are about 1 in 5 to hit our flush, which should give us the winning hand. Therefore, we can certainly call a turn bet. That does not mean betting it is a good idea.

You should consider the money already in the pot when you are deciding to call or deciding to bluff. (I know you're not the OP, but for the sake of simplicity, I'm going to pretend you're playing this hand.) If you had one opponent here who checked to you, you might consider a semi-bluff bet. You would be risking 1 bet to take down a pot of 11 bets. And if you get called, you still have a reasonable chance to win. So you'd think about your opponent and whether he/she would likely fold this more than 1 out of 11 times if you bet the turn. If you think that's a reasonable expectation, go ahead and bet.

But when you're deciding whether to bet for equity you are trying to decide if you are getting full value on your investment. You want to put in less than your share of the money, while your opponents put in more than their share. We are interested in money currently going into the pot.

Since you are slightly better than 1 in 3 to win on the flop, if you bet/raise and get 2 callers, you have made money. You invested 2 dollars and the callers each chipped in 2 dollars. But of the 6 dollars that just went in , you can reasonably expect to win about $2.10. Your opponents can only expect to win $3.90 of their money back.

If you get 3 callers, it gets even better, because you expect to get $2.79 back on your $2 investment. So the more callers you get, the happier you are.

On the turn, however, you're now only half as likely to make your hand. So you need twice as many callers to be ahead on your investment. Not people who saw the turn with you, but people who actually call your bet. It doesn't matter how big the pot is now. Unless they're all folding (very unlikely with 4 to the turn) you are now generally losing money when you bet this turn. You may gain a smidge of expectation if you can fold out an ace, but probably not enough to compensate for the whole bet you spend...when the alternative was seeing the river for free.

Not only are you unlikely to get value out of a bet, but you are in last position and don't have to worry about having to call a bet behind you if you check.

Disclaimer: Not a math person, so anyone who wants to check these numbers, please do so.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Guys, don't pay so much attention to the preflop raise. The turn is where the real mistake is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Why are you not taking a free card on this turn? Are you trying to buy the pot right there versus three other players? Given that board, there are a number of straight and flush possibilities, most of which aren't folding. Also, no one with a 5 is folding, and it's unlikely that a 9 folds either.

There has been a lot of discussion about the preflop raise, but I'm really curious about OP's reasoning behind betting the turn rather than checking.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, how about this (not that it justifies the bet, but just for arguments sake)...

To buy two (or more) more outs. Suppose AJ/AT of clubs stayed in on the flop with two over cards and a backdoor draw. Or what about T9 or 98? Couldn't a turn bet buy two or more outs? Is that justified in a 11+ BB pot if a better hand folds? Just a thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Suppose AX (where X outkicks your 8) stayed in on the flop with two overcards. He's still in the hand when the turn is checked to you. Assuming the 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is no good, you probably have 8 outs at this point. You have 7 known cards (your two hole cards, the four on the board, and your opponent's assumed A) and 45 unknowns. Out of those 45 unknowns there are probably 8 hearts that improve your hand without giving someone a boat. So your equity is 8/45=17.78%, and 17.78% x 11.25 BB = 2 BB.

Now if your Ax opponent folds, you have two more outs. 10/45=22.22%, and 22.22% x 11.25 BB = 2.50 BB. So you're paying 1 BB to gain 0.5 BB in equity.

I believe you would have to buy 4 more outs in this situation to increase your equity by the same amount of big bets as your turn bet. If the pot was larger, then it might be different.

2) Suppose one of your opponents has T9 or 98. I don't expect someone with top pair to fold on the turn with a large pot. It's possible but extremely unlikely for most 1/2 players to make that type of laydown in a hand where only one opponent has shown any aggression.

I think the concept of buying outs with a big pot is more applicable on the flop than the turn because you only have one more card to come. Buying two more outs on the flop is much more valuable than buying two more outs on the turn. Of course all of this is highly dependent upon the size of the pot, your opponents, and the texture of the board. However, I think trying to buy outs is -EV in this particular hand.

I hope some of that makes sense.

Re: Do I cap this suited ace preflop?
 

i think limping preflop is slightly higher ev... i would never raise here anyway

check the turn too