88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

playing away from home - no stats available.

UTG was pretty typical with preflop raises. a range for him here utg is something like AJo, A9s, 66, KQo, KJs. if anything it's a little tighter than this, though. i had gotten in quite a few sb vs. bb hands with him, and he was pretty aggressive postflop. several times he called my sb open and raised raggy flops. i had not gone to showdown in those hands, though.

Button just sat down recently.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="green">i'll 3-bet TT for sure, and most likely 99... include 88 in the mix?</font>

Flop: (6.5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

<font color="green">i know he is going to bet here. had button folded i was check raising.</font>

Turn: (4.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font> . . .

<font color="green">good card for me. bet? i think this guy is likely to bet both his overpair and his overcard hands here, and button seems to be padding the pot. i'm very unlikely to get 3-bet here, and the guy will definitely fold 6 outers to this (maybe even 99/TT). is this good? what's the river plan?</font>

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

I don't mind how you played it. I've been 3-betting this a lot PF lately though.

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

If it was Button who raised I'd 3-bet this everytime - UTG at Absolute, not so much with a 3rd player in

I think you should c/r the flop still - you gain fold equity on the turn (don't let overcards see the river), and get to see where you're at cheaply

With c/r'ing the turn, you have a very small chance of folding both players before the river, and will probably get to showdown with someone seeing a 5th card (which you don't really want)

I don't really hate the way you played it - I'd just c/r the flop instead - of course c/c on the turn is v. bad

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

I raise that PF about 60% of the time in that situation. I think its fairly close either way. As for the turn I like the raise. I really doubt button has a J or he would have raised most likely.

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

So i'd be happy with your line if button wasn't here but after coldcalling preflop, Called flop/Turn i start to worry.

Ok so raise seems ok, as you say AK etc is being betted here often.

Plan for river? Well show me the card and i'll post, to tired to think ahead.

i guess A-T will be tricky, So will a Spade(Button?).

Anything less and guess we're betting, maybe check behind if its scary and we're checked too.

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

why not bet the flop and let UTG blow button away?

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

[ QUOTE ]
why not bet the flop and let UTG blow button away?

[/ QUOTE ]
because i don't expect him to raise with a worse hand often at all. if this does work (let's say he raises with
A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and takes a free turn card), he's still going to outdraw me ~30% of the time. but most of the time he raises, he'll have an overpair or AJ.

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not bet the flop and let UTG blow button away?

[/ QUOTE ]
because i don't expect him to raise with a worse hand often at all. if this does work (let's say he raises with
A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and takes a free turn card), he's still going to outdraw me ~30% of the time. but most of the time he raises, he'll have an overpair or AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he is aggressive enough to bet his overcard hands on the turn, why wouldn't he be aggressive enough to raise the flop with overs?

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

i don't think the two necessarily correlate like that. at least not at 1/2.

i've seen many players willing to continue betting as long as no one else shows any aggression, but they will shut down when when someone bets.

i basically never bet into preflop raisers with marginal hands unless the raiser is too aggressive. however i don't always bet my good hands either.. so when i c/r it could be a good hand or a marginal hand. but when i bet it's basically always a good hand. and yeah, i feel bad about this.

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

[ QUOTE ]
why not bet the flop and let UTG blow button away?

[/ QUOTE ]

That happens less then you think. i.e. a lot of thinks can go wrong. UTG could call. BT could call two. Or you could be beat.

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why not bet the flop and let UTG blow button away?

[/ QUOTE ]
because i don't expect him to raise with a worse hand often at all. if this does work (let's say he raises with
A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and takes a free turn card), he's still going to outdraw me ~30% of the time. but most of the time he raises, he'll have an overpair or AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is successful in knocking out the button, this would be a pretty standard spot for a stop and go and fold to another raise.

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

What do you think about donk/folding the turn? I like your line (assuming we're folding to a 3-bet) if he might raise a turn donk with a hand you beat. What's your plan for the river?

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind how you played it. I've been 3-betting this a lot PF lately though.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that 3 betting PF OOP this situation is horrible, and if you are doing that often, you are putting way too much money in PF OOP.

I dig the whole hand so far. That second jack is really good, and you should fold to a three bet if it happens

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind how you played it. I've been 3-betting this a lot PF lately though.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think that 3 betting PF OOP this situation is horrible, and if you are doing that often, you are putting way too much money in PF OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're argument is basically applicable to any hand. If I 3-bet 88 here isn't for the same reason I 3-bet AA.

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about donk/folding the turn? I like your line (assuming we're folding to a 3-bet) if he might raise a turn donk with a hand you beat. What's your plan for the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't think donk/folding is bad. the guy won't raise me with a worse hand. i kind of like checking more though, because i get to see if button raises and i get value from overcards that will bet here but perhaps fold to a donk bet. the great thing is that he will often fold his 6 outs to my c/r, too.

my river plan obviously depends on what happens after my c/r. if they both call (or if only UTG calls) i'm leading any non A/K/Q river. i'm not sure what i do if an A/K/Q falls. if only button calls i'm leading any river. if they both fold, i rejoice.

Re: 88 in BB - i c/c, c/r.
 

yeah.

fold to a 3bet.

bet the river regardless of what it is.