2 100/200 blind war hands
 

100/200 6max on interpoker.

Villain in first hand is not one of the highstakes regulars as far as I know but his stats are decent and he just sat down this session and I don't remember him at all.

Folded to him in the sb he raises and I call with 86o.

Flop Q54r he bets I raise.

Turn A putting a 2 flush up there, he bets I raise again (planning to follow through on the river of course)

Hand 2 is with a new player who just sat down in the villain from the previous hand's seat...and I've never seen him before.

Folded to him and he raises, I call with J8o Flop Q97r. He bets I call.

Turn 5 putting a 2 flush out there. He bets and I raise.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

hey bk,

How often do you 3bet pf in these situations? In hand1, it seems villain would know you either had a monster or were FOS given your action thus far, and would call you down with any A or Q. I'm not sure if he would play K-hi or a worse pair this way..if you think so, and you think they will fold, then I like it. Otherwise I think things don't look so good.

Hand 2 is more of a standard float/semibluff, but I'm not sure villain will lay down A-hi here. And will he fire again on the turn with worse than that often enough to warrant raising? I'm not so sure, but i'm not too familiar with the 1/2 game so this is all theoretical.

Surf

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

I agree with Surf's analysis of hand one.

Hand two I like and I think villain will definitely fold ace high here and even some paired hands. That board is all connected, middlish cards. Those are the kinds of boards I'd fold hands on, so I assume this guy will too.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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Hand two I like and I think villain will definitely fold ace high here and even some paired hands. That board is all connected, middlish cards. Those are the kinds of boards I'd fold hands on, so I assume this guy will too.

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This has been my problem recently. I know that *I* would let go of an ace here b/c this is so often a pair raising, but my opponents don't act the same way. I've burned alot of chips the past few days on floats/semibluffs against opps who I thought would act the way I do and surprise me by calling down with K7 no pair.

Surf

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

For hand 1, is the high limit "standard" to checkraise the turn with an Ace in SB's position? It makes some sense that it would be since he should expect you to always follow through after your flop raise. If that's the case then I like your play as he will most often be representing the Ace and seldom have it.

I'm not sure about your plan to fire again on the river if called. What hands do you think call the turn but fold river? Perhaps broadway gutters? The odds aren't really there for him to call with those on turn though maybe he believes his pair outs are sometimes good. In any case if a K or T hits I don't think you should bluff.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

Anyone think that hand 1 he should fold preflop? Yeah it is a blind war, but 68o isnt agreat hand aganist anyone. I guess if you think you can hands down outplay villian than it is ok, but I think you're asking for trouble, but what do i know I just play 10-20 meh [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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but what do i know I just play 10-20 meh [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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That's a by-product of the forum split. We're now the lowest creatures in this new eco-system.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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but what do i know I just play 10-20 meh [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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That's a by-product of the forum split. We're now the lowest creatures in this new eco-system.

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I would call in party 10/20.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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but what do i know I just play 10-20 meh [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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That's a by-product of the forum split. We're now the lowest creatures in this new eco-system.

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I would call in party 10/20.

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I'm not 100% certain, but if this was ever profitable at 10/20 the rake now eats whatever slim profits you had with the hike a few months ago. I'd call it at 20/40 though, where my opponents raise more preflop and pay off my pairs reliably postflop.

Surf

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

first hand I dont like at all. He knows you arent folding a pair to this turn bet so this is unlikely to be a bluff. Assuming he folds hands like 9T or J9 on the flop (this may very well be a bad assumption), I dont think he will have air enough to make this play worthwhile. The only hands I can see him playing like this that he will lay down are K8-KJ. Also, if he calls the turn raise I really think you have to just give him the pot on the river. If he calls the raise he is going to showdown most of the time.


Hand 2 I like. You've got a lot of outs and hopefully he didn't hit the board. If you are called here I think you should probably follow through in the hopes he will let go of KT or A6 or similar.

edit: also, do you know how to import hands from crypto skins on PT, i've havent been able to figure it out, and i thought i was doing everything right. I click on 'import from crypto', then choose the file interpoker/blahblah.log or whatever and it doesnt seem to work.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

this should be a call at all limits IMO.

Remember you are getting 3-1 and you have position. If you flop any pair or draw you will probably able to take it down.

also, if you wont be able to take it down with a draw usually, then you will get paid enough on your one pair hands to make it worthwhile. i.e. if they never fold A high or K high on T72 flops and the like then when it does come T82 you will get make enough to make up for all the flops when you just fold.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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Turn A putting a 2 flush up there, he bets I raise again (planning to follow through on the river of course)

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I just don't get this at all. Here are some reasons why I don't understand this play.

1. You didn't reraise preflop eliminating some big ace hands.
2. You raised a relatively harmless flop which means you could have a pair, draw, or nothing. Many weak holdings.
3. He raised preflop. Many of his hands will contain an ace.
4. The turn puts a new draw on the board so he might put you on a flush draw and call down lighter.

If it was me, I might have a Q planning on checkraising the turn. The ace might scare you so I don't. I'd call down your raise with basically any Q here.

I might also have an ace. Autobet the flop, calling the raise. I might plan on calling down unimproved or check-folding depending on what the board brings. When the ace comes on the turn I bet for value thinking you'll check behind small pairs fearing the ace. When you raise I'll call down (possibly donking the river).

The river followthrough seems particularly terrible as I can't think of a hand I would call the raise on the turn ad fold the river. I would have to be unpaired. I wouldn't call the turn with JTo getting 7-1. KJ, KT are remote possibilities but I think they are outweighed by my legitimate pair hands.

Do you think a picked up flush draw comprise a large part of his hand range? What am I missing?

Krishan

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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this should be a call at all limits IMO.

Remember you are getting 3-1 and you have position. If you flop any pair or draw you will probably able to take it down.

also, if you wont be able to take it down with a draw usually, then you will get paid enough on your one pair hands to make it worthwhile. i.e. if they never fold A high or K high on T72 flops and the like then when it does come T82 you will get make enough to make up for all the flops when you just fold.

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So what are you folding?

EDIT: Not trying to be a jerk, just curious.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

irish boy,

what hands to you play like this:

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Folded to him and he raises, I call with X... Flop Q97r. He bets I call.

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Barron

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

23o, 25o, J2-J6o, Q2-Q6o, 47o, 83o, 94o, stuff like that

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

you fold Q6 and J6 but not 86? that doesn't make so much sense to me since high card power + pairing is more important HU than the rare straight?

Or, do you expect to be able to pick up pots w/ semibluffs when you flop straight draws which are more frequent?

Surf

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

well in terms of showdown value youre never really going to be showing down Q high or J high, although a pair of Qs or Js will sometimes beat his pair of 8s or 9s and that is significant.

but yeah, occasionally making a str8 and possibly getting a lot of bets in, and being able to semibluff on a lot of low flops makes 86o> J6o IMO. Also you are less likely to be dominated with 86o.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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well in terms of showdown value youre never really going to be showing down Q high or J high, although a pair of Qs or Js will sometimes beat his pair of 8s or 9s and that is significant.

but yeah, occasionally making a str8 and possibly getting a lot of bets in, and being able to semibluff on a lot of low flops makes 86o> J6o IMO. Also you are less likely to be dominated with 86o.

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Does this mean 54o > Q4o and 43o > K3o?
I'm not being funny, just curious as to where you draw the line.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

Well, the turn decision in the first hand is difficult. Raising just screams bluff. Considering the alternatives: Folding is pretty bad for your image. You could call and hope he checks to you on the river, where a bluff bet is more convincing. Risky proposition.

One factor people seem to have ignored is that this is a relatively new confrontation. First impressions are critical. Let's say you bet and raise w/ 68 at every opportunity, and your new opponent calls down w/ his pair of aces, expecting you to show a monster. His note on you is going to be nasty, and he'll remember you for that donkey play more than anything else. Exploited correctly, this maniacal image is extremely valuable.

Anyway, the ace falling on the turn is simply terrible luck. There are no good choices, but all of them are legitimate. Raise 40%, fold 40%, call 20% - or something like that.

With no history with your opponent, the turn raise in hand 2 is OK. The problem is, you'll almost always get called, because there aren't too many hands out there that don't have some kind of draw. Nevertheless, you have as many as 14 outs, and it's always good to test new opponents to see what you can get away with. Just expect to have to fire the river. Again, these plays are expensive propositions.

I wonder if one of the best ways to adjust to ultra-agressive games is simply to almost never bluff?

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

personally i will play the 54o and not the Q4o usually, but would prefer K3o to 43o. K high will win enough showdowns to overcome the things i mentioned in the previous post.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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I wonder if one of the best ways to adjust to ultra-agressive games is simply to almost never bluff?

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Maybe not never, but I've experimented recently with bluffing/semibluffing very infrequently, and it's gotten pretty good results. My opponents (especially the looser ones) make huge mistakes from a game-theory perspective since the hands i attack with nearly always have a pair, or a large # of outs.

As another side of this my flop aggression has gone through the roof...i'm either jamming or folding to save bets for jamming. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If my opponent looks to be adjusting and folding more i'll add in more bluffs.

Surf

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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personally i will play the 54o and not the Q4o usually, but would prefer K3o to 43o.

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I hate perpetuating these pointless pre flop discussions, but Q4o>54o. Plug it into pokerstove and you'll see that Q4o has a 3.0% equity advantage vs. a 45% steal range. Q2o has a 2.2% advantage over 54o.

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equity (%)
62.5% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
37.5% { Q4o }


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equity (%)
65.5%{ 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
34.5% { 54o }

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equity (%)
63.3% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J6s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K6o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
36.7% { Q2o }

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Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

if you had asked me which was better hot and cold, i would have said Q4o. It is close enough though IMO that increased semibluffing oppurtunities will mean more money for 45o in the long run.

When you win with 45o you will tend to win more money than with the Q4o. The SB is much more likely to payoff with A or Khigh on a 34782 board then QT235 IMO.

all in all, i'm not too sure about this one.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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Turn A putting a 2 flush up there, he bets I raise again (planning to follow through on the river of course)


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I get the first part of this sentence but not the second part. Would care to expand on it a little bit?
I don't play higher than 10/20 so I might be missing something.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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Turn A putting a 2 flush up there, he bets I raise again (planning to follow through on the river of course)


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I get the first part of this sentence but not the second part. Would care to expand on it a little bit?
I don't play higher than 10/20 so I might be missing something.

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I don't think he has the ace he's representing, I have 8 high and I want the pot. Maybe he calls the turn with a small/med pair and finally believes me when I bet the river. My perception is in the higher games you have to make more 'uncomfortable' follow through bets because players are better hand readers and you need to do anything you can to convince them you have what you're representing as well as make them know that when you raise the turn they have to call 2 bets to see your hand and that you're not just a guy who raises for 'free' showdowns a lot. Players that raise the turn and check behind on the river a decent amount are much easier to play against.

Does that clear it up?

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

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I don't think he has the ace he's representing, I have 8 high and I want the pot. Maybe he calls the turn with a small/med pair and finally believes me when I bet the river. My perception is in the higher games you have to make more 'uncomfortable' follow through bets because players are better hand readers and you need to do anything you can to convince them you have what you're representing as well as make them know that when you raise the turn they have to call 2 bets to see your hand and that you're not just a guy who raises for 'free' showdowns a lot. Players that raise the turn and check behind on the river a decent amount are much easier to play against.

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BK,

I've played up to 30/60 (never higher) and what you're saying makes sense. If we let people push us around, our future at that particular table is pretty grim. However, I think we tend to value our own image a lot more than our opponents do. That's part of the ego-centrical poker world in which we play.

Isn't the biggest reason those follow through bets are 'uncomfortable' due to their limited success? Once we get called on the turn, we pretty much know we're grasping for straws on the river, and hate to invest all of that money only to fail at showdown.

I understand that if we freeze the action on the river and look at that bet separately, we only need the villain to fold 1 in every 9 times to make the bet worthwhile. But what about all of the compounded -EV bets that led us there? Is it worth planning things like this out from the start of the hand (by saying "this will be my 'move' hand if I miss"), or is this just a result of being backed into a corner by several failed attempts?

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

On the flop I have 4 outs to the nuts, and 6 additional pair outs that have a pretty good chance IMO of being good. I also have position and I attempted to use it to steal the innitiative from him and be the one winning when we both miss instead of the other way around. Even if he has me beat, I often have plenty of outs. Sometimes I'm wayyyyyyy behind. That's just worrying too much though.

About the river play, yes, I think it's just a result of being backed into the corner to make the bet. If I knew it was going to take this much resistance I wouldn't have raised the flop.

Re: 2 100/200 blind war hands
 

I see what you are saying. I guess there are more free showdown plays at those limits than at 10/20 and even the bad players are aware of that making it necessary to follow through more. It is an expensive move though and looked at in a vacuum I doubt it is +EV. On the other hand you WILL get paid off handsomely in the future at this table if this hand gets to showdown [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I also imagine considerations/shania play a much bigger role at 100/200 since the pool of players is a lot more limited than at 10/20 and so you guys run into each other a lot more.