AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

We just combined to the final table 7 hands ago. Since then I had taken down 3 hands with a PFR. This is the first time I had seen villain in this tournament so all I know is that he had taken down 1 hand preflop with a raise and no flop since we combined tables.

Blinds $3000/$6000 antes $200 (I think that's how much the antes were, this is from memory)

...
...
CO: Hero ($110k)
Button: Villain ($130k)
...

2 stacks are smaller than me (~$80k each), 2 others are within $30k, and 2 are $200k+. 8th pays $190, 1st pays $1800.

Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Folded to Hero who raises to $18k. Villain min-reraises to $30k.

If I wasn't in such an obvious steal position I would have no trouble laying this down. I am normally a cash game player who is just starting in tournaments so this is probably a pretty simple situation here.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

Looks like a push to me.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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If I wasn't in such an obvious steal position I would have no trouble laying this down.

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Right, but as is he's giving you pretty nice odds to go ahead and call and see what comes. Because you've been very aggressive (3 steals in 7 hands) and because it is an obvious steal position, his range here can be very wide. Go ahead and call and take it from there. Alternatively, you can push, but I think this isn't a terrible spot to take a flop and I think you'll have more folding equity after the flop. I'd bet if you miss and check if you hit in this circumstance.

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

What tourney number is this,

I don't see any 10+1 FT's going?

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

[ QUOTE ]

Right, but as is he's giving you pretty nice odds to go ahead and call and see what comes. Because you've been very aggressive (3 steals in 7 hands) and because it is an obvious steal position, his range here can be very wide. Go ahead and call and take it from there. Alternatively, you can push, but I think this isn't a terrible spot to take a flop and I think you'll have more folding equity after the flop. I'd bet if you miss and check if you hit in this circumstance.

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Hm yeah, a stop and go sounds really good right here.

Also, if villain makes a real reraise (to, say, $50k), this becomes a fold until I find out that villain is restealing too much, correct?

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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What tourney number is this,

I don't see any 10+1 FT's going?

[/ QUOTE ]

The tournament was last night. I thought about this hand as I was falling asleep and again as I woke up today so I decided it was time to post since I couldn't decide what I thought the right play was.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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[ QUOTE ]

If I wasn't in such an obvious steal position I would have no trouble laying this down.

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Right, but as is he's giving you pretty nice odds to go ahead and call and see what comes. Because you've been very aggressive (3 steals in 7 hands) and because it is an obvious steal position, his range here can be very wide. Go ahead and call and take it from there. Alternatively, you can push, but I think this isn't a terrible spot to take a flop and I think you'll have more folding equity after the flop. I'd bet if you miss and check if you hit in this circumstance.

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You have to push here AQs is a big hand and villain may fold. I am almost alwasys reraising with Aqs versus a late position raise.

I don't understand why OP would find it easy to fold AQs to a raise. I would fold it in some situations, but usually I am calling or reraising.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

I like the stop and go here. Min reraises are a bit irritating, and could mean JJ or tens here. You're better off seeing the flop, I think. As was said, check if you hit, bet if you miss.

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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[ QUOTE ]
What tourney number is this,

I don't see any 10+1 FT's going?

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The tournament was last night. I thought about this hand as I was falling asleep and again as I woke up today so I decided it was time to post since I couldn't decide what I thought the right play was.

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The min raise stinks to high hell. Your not very deep so a call here might not be the best thing to do.

PUSH OR FOLD

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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Also, if villain makes a real reraise (to, say, $50k), this becomes a fold until I find out that villain is restealing too much, correct?

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Given how aggressive you've been, I have to think that your hand performs pretty well against the range of hands villain has. It's difficult to tell just how tight the table is, but it would be pretty surprising if there wasn't restealing going on. Standing up for yourself here will also defend future stealing efforts somewhat, assuming you survive. So I think if I've been that aggressive, I'm folding this hand very very rarely.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

AQs is too good for a stop n go.

i would just call and take a flop. if you miss you still are in decent chip position. push is also fine too

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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AQs is too good for a stop n go.

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Huh? You'd rather call and fold because your hand is too good?

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

Yeah, but after he calls it leaves him with 80K left and 13BBs left if he has to fold on the flop. That is why the push here is the correct play.

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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Yeah, but after he calls it leaves him with 80K left and 13BBs left if he has to fold on the flop. That is why the push here is the correct play.

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exactly, this is a push or fold situation.

stop n go is such a useless move, ESPECIALLY this deep and against a player that covers.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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AQs is too good for a stop n go.

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Huh? You'd rather call and fold because your hand is too good?

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no AQs is too good to call then push on any flop, stop n gos work better with small to mid pp's.
i think you have enough to call and take a flop
but i also think a push is fine

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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Yeah, but after he calls it leaves him with 80K left and 13BBs left if he has to fold on the flop. That is why the push here is the correct play.

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13 BBs leaves you far from crippled, and the prospect of stacking TP with a weaker kicker is pretty exciting to me. If you push now, I think most of the hands that call are ones that you'd wish hadn't.

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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Yeah, but after he calls it leaves him with 80K left and 13BBs left if he has to fold on the flop. That is why the push here is the correct play.

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13 BBs leaves you far from crippled, and the prospect of stacking TP with a weaker kicker is pretty exciting to me. If you push now, I think most of the hands that call are ones that you'd wish hadn't.

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I am not folding AQs at a final table with 13BBs and anyone that does is a nut.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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no AQs is too good to call then push on any flop

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I'm trying to figure out what you can mean here. In what sense is it too good for that? Your stack is not deep enough, nor is AQ good enough, to make trying to milk value post flop with it when you whiff feasible. Checking and folding postflop against an opponent who is very frequently trying to take you off what he perceives as a steal here seems like it's giving up a ton.

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stop n gos work better with small to mid pp's.

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How do you figure? The only way I can imagine is that when you get called, you might be slightly more likely to be ahead still because the other guy is calling with overcards. But the stacks are still big enough so that he's not likely to call with random garbage, so I can't see how a low-mid pocket pair could figure to be any better than AQ here. With AQ you at least have outs even if you're behind.

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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Yeah, but after he calls it leaves him with 80K left and 13BBs left if he has to fold on the flop. That is why the push here is the correct play.

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13 BBs leaves you far from crippled, and the prospect of stacking TP with a weaker kicker is pretty exciting to me. If you push now, I think most of the hands that call are ones that you'd wish hadn't.

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I am not folding AQs at a final table with 13BBs and anyone that does is a nut.

[/ QUOTE ]13bb's isnt that bad for a stars FT

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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I am not folding AQs at a final table with 13BBs and anyone that does is a nut.

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You start the hand with more than that. Having 13 BBs left and being postflop is a different beast, and I don't think yours is the best perspective here. That said, if you've read what I've said elsewhere in this thread, in this particular situation I'm almost never folding either. That still doesn't mean this is necessarily a push/fold decision preflop.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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I don't understand why OP would find it easy to fold AQs to a raise. I would fold it in some situations, but usually I am calling or reraising.

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Err I was thinking about a real raise when I wrote that. And I did't mean that I would necessarily do it, just that I wouldn't feel bad if I did.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that this hand crated a little discussion and that the situation isn't as cut and dry as I thought it would be. Personally, at the time, I felt like a push was the best play. Taking down the pot right now will be +$40k for me without seeing a flop, something that sounds really really attractive. The ONLY hand that I REALLY don't want to see that a stop and go will get rid of (and a push won't) is AK. Other than that, I can see villain calling my push with any PP once we take a flop. However, if villain is feeling risk averse he might lay down 22-66 here if I push (although doubtful since he's already put $30k in, I can see it happening if the jump from 8th to 7th means somthing to him).

As far as I can tell those are the benefits to SnG vs. Push. After weighing them all, I decided that a push would be better and hope that he would call me with something like KQ/AJ.

Any flaws in my thought process here?

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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I am not folding AQs at a final table with 13BBs and anyone that does is a nut.

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You start the hand with more than that. Having 13 BBs left and being postflop is a different beast, and I don't think yours is the best perspective here. That said, if you've read what I've said elsewhere in this thread, in this particular situation I'm almost never folding either. That still doesn't mean this is necessarily a push/fold decision preflop.

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Ok, let me ask this. What hands are folding the flop to a SnG that are calling a push that we want to call. What hands are folding the flop to a SnG that are calling a push that we want to CALL.

I think the second group is much bigger and we have a much bigger advantage against those hands. Therefore, I want as much money as possible from THOSE hands since I've resigned myself to the fact that it's all going in against any hand that has me dominated (and probably almost all PPs) at some point.

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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Ok, let me ask this. What hands are folding the flop to a SnG that are calling a push that we want to call. What hands are folding the flop to a SnG that are calling a push that we want to CALL.

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There aren't very many hands at all that I want to call me PF instead of folding if I push. Dominated A's and Q's are about it, and in that category I lose most of the aces and probably all the Q's except KQ maybe. Keeping these kinds of hands around and stacking them if we both hit is potentially quite lucrative. Despite what you're saying, I think a stop and go (which you may not even need to do, you can probably get away with less than a push on the flop) does lose some pocket pairs that you really would like to move out. Pushing will frequently get rid of some of these as well, but the stop and go (or just a flop bet) is probably more effective at it.

The stop and go will also drive out hands that we dominate post flop, but the thing is that I think most of those hands fold when we push preflop, and there's no good way to extract value from them in the other circumstance, so I don't think you're missing much in that situation.

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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13 BBs leaves you far from crippled, and the prospect of stacking TP with a weaker kicker is pretty exciting to me. If you push now, I think most of the hands that call are ones that you'd wish hadn't.

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This is where I think M is more important than BB. With the ante's this would leave us with 8M, or 8 orbits before we are blinded out and 3 orbits before we start getting desperate. I think that a lot of hands call here that we don't mind a call from, like 88-JJ. We also fold smaller pairs and resteals. The min-raise from Villian could be a monster, or it could be a test to see how much you really like your hand (i.e. testing to see if you're raising with any two). It could also just be a bad resteal attempt. At a $10 we also can't throw out the possiblity that AJs and maybe even ATs is calling a push. If we push we are getting 1.5:1 on our money when called. These are pretty good odds considering the situation. We also increase our stack by 40% the few times we take it down unconstested. Push.

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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The stop and go will also drive out hands that we dominate post flop, but the thing is that I think most of those hands fold when we push preflop, and there's no good way to extract value from them in the other circumstance, so I don't think you're missing much in that situation.


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This is a good point. So the question for me is, what is more valuable? Folding the 22-66 (maybe even 77, 88) and taking down a pretty nice pot uncontested, or the SnG which we'll stack off if we both hit and we'll be way ahead most of the time. On the other hand, at a $10 I think that some weaker A's (AJ,AT) and even KQ will think they "have overs" and call preflop anyway. I would also feel sick when the K9s resteal outflops me. Nevertheless, your point is good and while I still prefer a push I think that you've illustrated that SnG is a great option as well.

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

Bumping this for the nighttime crowd; I'm curious how general the preference for pushing vs. calling is.

Re: Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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Bumping this for the nighttime crowd; I'm curious how general the preference for pushing vs. calling is.

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Thanks, I'm curious too since this doesn't seem as clear cut as I first thought. I can see the benefits of doing both and I'm wondering if I'm there's a big drawback to either one.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

Don't see any merit for a SnG, you have preflop FE here.

The minreraise is a bit scary since people love do do it with AA/KK. I call and take a flop here.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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Don't see any merit for a SnG, you have preflop FE here.

The minreraise is a bit scary since people love do do it with AA/KK. I call and take a flop here.

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If the minraise has you scared of AA/KK (which I agree with) how are you playing a Q high flop?

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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Don't see any merit for a SnG, you have preflop FE here.

The minreraise is a bit scary since people love do do it with AA/KK. I call and take a flop here.

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If the minraise has you scared of AA/KK (which I agree with) how are you playing a Q high flop?

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This is why you just shove them in here.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

I check to villain and go with what my gut tells me after he bet. I might donkminraise a smallish bet and see what he does. Basicly I hate this situation, and prefer deciding preflop if I think he has AA/KK or not. Then push or fold. Without any reads this is very hard.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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I call and take a flop here.

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I hate this situation, and prefer deciding preflop if I think he has AA/KK or not. Then push or fold.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

Changed my mind after you asked what I did on Q-high flop.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

ask yourself this mason...if you have AKos and not AQ is it an easier decision ???

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

I like a push. You are much more likely to be called down by crap preflop than postflop (in my experience). Also, pushing ensures that you will see all five cards. Sometimes you'll get outplayed on the flop (if you only call) when you whiff, and that sucks.

-Gross

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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I like a push. You are much more likely to be called down by crap preflop than postflop (in my experience).

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This is not a compelling argument for pushing now at all. Winning this pot without contest is much more attractive to me than getting K9 in there.


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Also, pushing ensures that you will see all five cards. Sometimes you'll get outplayed on the flop (if you only call) when you whiff, and that sucks.


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Because you get to go first on the flop, it will be hard to be outplayed when you whiff if your plan is to bet.

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

What I didn't say is that you'll get villain to fold often too. If you push, there will be three outcomes; they will fold and you'll take the pot. The will call with a dominated hand. They will call as the favorite. Weaker players holding AJ will call you down, but the J-9o's will probably fold. In my experience, they'l fold or you'll get called by a dominated hand often enough to make this a good play.

Being first to act after the flop is nice for a stop and go, but I still push preflop.

-Gross

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

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If you push, there will be three outcomes; they will fold and you'll take the pot. The will call with a dominated hand. They will call as the favorite.

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Wow, now that is [censored] profound [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: AQs, 8 left, Stars 10+1, feeling stuck
 

Was talking to a friend today and telling him about this hand so I figured I'd post results (not that they matter).

I pushed, villain had AA. I am fine and believe that I made the correct play. The thing that got me thinking was that the flop came queen high and I would have gotten stacked no matter what I did in this instance. It caused me to become results un-oriented and consider whether a SnG or a push preflop was better. After thinking for a few days I think a push was best in this situation.