You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

I want to play X hands and win X dollars before going pro.

I work 60-80 hours a week since I graduated, so I can't play any hands.

This is a tough catch 22 for me.

I'm including 3 polls I would only like people to answer if they play full time for a living and make at least $70k/year.

I've made about $25,000 this year part-timing with long breaks (like when I started work), including an $8k multi cash in. I've played over 100,000 hands and over 500 SnGs but a lot of them are from when I played the lower levels.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

just quit your job already. life's too short.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

just quit your job already. life's too short.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

I think your question is actually pretty valid and deserving more than just a short non-thought out answer.

Unfortuanlly I havent made this move myself, but I know others that have, and have had some thoughts about it for myself.

I currently make 60K at my current job. Ive talked to people who play up to 10/20 online, multitable, along with bonuses, and they can spend more than 60-70 hours a week just to average an amount that doesnt even equal my 60K a year.

Plus on top of that, you have to consider that you still are responsible for paying taxes, and well as make up for all the other benefits that having a job provides you with. (Health insurance being the major one, it's way more expensive when you have to pay for it on your own)

Also this is a no-brainer but before you even think about going pro, it's good to have a long enough track record part time so that you can be sure that you're really as good as you are and are not just experiencing positive varience.

Also Id be willing to bet that anyone who would just instantly suggest you should do it because "life is too short" is not making 70K a year and doesnt have much of a long term career.

If you are making 70K a year it's likely that you are in the process of having a career that you may of been working on for awhile. It's hard to just simply throw that away to play poker when you arent really sure what's going to happen.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

I've gotten alot of votes, are all of you actually full time pro or just dabbling in poker.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

i think "should i go pro" talk is very stupid.

if you think you can survive on poker, and you want to, then go pro.

if you can't then get a job.

if you don't try it, you can't know. PERIOD.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ive talked to people who play up to 10/20 online, multitable, along with bonuses, and they can spend more than 60-70 hours a week just to average an amount that doesnt even equal my 60K a year.

[/ QUOTE ]


I know people run bad at times...but this doesn't seem terribly realistic.


Lets say that 'multi-tabling' is 3-tables.
Lets round down to 50 hds/hr per table (150 hands per hour total).
If you play 10/20 for 60 hours a week (ummmm....okay, whatever you say) then this is roughly 7500 hands per week.

At just 1BB/100 you should be making $1500/wk (which is more than $60k/yr...and we haven't even included bonuses and rake-back).



If you're playing 10/20 for 60 hours a week then making roughly $1k per week is pathetic.

You're friends are lying...or you are...because this just doesn't make sense.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

Wether you "think" you can survive is based on data and analysis.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

And based on that I would definitely say that 500k hands (Top option in your poll) is on the LOW end

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

That's just the thing. There is no way someone that isn't already playing full time can accumulate 500,000 hands. You have to way the numbed of hands you want versus the realities of you playing that much. You have to compromise. How much do you compromise? That is the point of the poll. But it seems every troll and their mother has responded about what they THINK they would need, rather then jsut people who actually did it responding.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

I think the essence is, lehighguy; that it is difficult for anyone who would like to respond constructively (like me [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) to know how you will do if you go pro. I love it, not for the money (I made more in the job I quited), but for the enormous freedom. It am 30 years old and being allowed to once again live like a student, is great.

Poker is going good and motivation is there, but will it be for you? Almost impossible to answer. I think it is easy to make good money from being a poker pro if you have the right personality/talent and hard if you haven't. You are the one who has the most information about yourself, so bottomline it will in the end be you doing the decision. How good you are in poker now, isn't really very important (if you don't have low funds) since you will have plenty of time to study the game when you have gone pro.


All this existensialist questions/searching show however that you have to change some things in your life, you don't seem happy/satisfied.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

I had way less than 500k when I went 'full-time'.

but my situation was significantly different in many ways.


- my job at the time (blackjack dealer) paid very little. and i could always get it back very quickly if I wanted/needed to.
- i was able to cut down on my hours at work when I was running decently, and dedicate more hours to poker.


For me going 'full-time' was more like 'taking-a-shot' because I thought the chances of having to return to my job within 3-4 months were extremely high and I was comfortable with that.
I had a pretty short bankroll and limited experience at poker.


To my mind...I didn't necessarily need 500k hands to prove that I was 'getting it' and was a 'proven winner'.
I didn't think I was that good when I tried it...but i believed I was smart enough to learn the game and get better WHILE i was doing it.
This is a pretty contraversial way of going about it though and wouldn't be responsible for many people's situations.



But if you are determined to try to do this then you are either going to have to put in the hands, or just take the plunge (because I suspect there isn't any kind of option where you go part-time at work and cut back on your hours to just 30-35 per week or something like that).

Having some sort of back-up plan would help your confidence of course.

But you are correct that there's no way you are going to be able to play 500k hands to 'prove' that you are lifetime winner while continuing to work 50-60 hours at your job.
I suspect that 15k or more hands per month might be a stretch.


Seriously....there's no way you could take a 3 month 'leave'?
there's no way you could get this job (or semi-similar) back if things go badly in poker?

my suspicion is that if you are good at something then you are good at it and there will be a place for you SOMEWHERE if the need comes.

you have made it sound like leaving your job practically makes you completely incapable of being hired for the rest of your life. And I simply do not believe that this can be true.
You might be better off in a different job anyway, even if it is less money. Working fewer hours, in a job that you enjoy a bit more would probably be best for you.


I suggest more seriously considering your other career options for if/when poker doesn't work out and then just leave your current job that you ahte so much.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

I got the talk from my parents this weekend. Wasn't even mentioning poker, said I applied to video game design school and was gonna see if they gave me a scholarship. My dad was like all berserk. Gave me the I paid for your college and your gonna throw it away speech.

I don't really care, if in a year I've made a lot of money they will get off my back. But if I bust out they will like disown me.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

[ QUOTE ]
I got the talk from my parents this weekend. Wasn't even mentioning poker, said I applied to video game design school and was gonna see if they gave me a scholarship. My dad was like all berserk. Gave me the I paid for your college and your gonna throw it away speech.

I don't really care, if in a year I've made a lot of money they will get off my back. But if I bust out they will like disown me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much puts the last piece in the puzzle, I think. If you are living/making decisions in order to satisfy somebody else's expections on the expense of your own's; you will never become happy. Time to prioritize yourself, and put them in the "I have decided to do this....."-category instead of "What do you think about me doing this?"-category, for a while.

If they really love you, they will keep loving you. If they will disown you, they did not really love you in the first place.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

I have amazing parents. Thier sole goal for the last 22 years has been to raise me. I think I can honestly say that 99% of the things they have done in the last 22 years have been towards this course. I don't think they have ever done anything for themselves.

Basically, they wake up, go to work all day at jobs they hate, and then come home just to do [censored] for me. I kept up my end of the bargain by doing well in school and getting a good job.

If I don't succeed, it will invalidate thier entire lives. I'm thier only accomplishment in two decades. I don't think they have anything else to live for.

I've never felt like I owed society or other people anything. But with my parents I feel there is a moral obligation because of all they have done for me.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

So it is your love for them that is making it complicated.

You want to quit your job (because basically you have started to hate it and snobbish upperclass businesslife in general) but you don't want to do something that make them feel bad?

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

That sums it up.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

I think you should try to explain to them that you are unhappy with your current life, it might make them as well realize that a change is necessary.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

Why not look for a job that doesn't suck so bad? Get something closer to 40 hrs, that way you can still play quite a bit, your parents will be happy, and you wont have to rely on poker for your sole income

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

I tried that, the conversation went something like this.

Me: My job sucks. I'm probably gonna burn out if I keep doing it. If I do well they are just gonna promote me to another job I hate.

Parents: Life is suppose to suck. Work is suppose to suck. The majority of your time in this life is doing [censored] you hate. It's part of making a living. (Long speach about how hard we've worked for you to get ahead).

They have both worked [censored] mid-low paying menial jobs thier whole lives. I don't want to live the way they do because, simply put, they seems unhappy the vast majority of the time.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

Well the conversation this weekend was about my applying to game design school. Which I thought was a legitimate compromise being that it is a more legitamate job. But it was a no go.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

At some point you just have to do what you think is best for you. Parents can have a lot of wisdom, but even when they do they can have a lot of silly ideas in their head, like the notion that life and work are supposed to suck. They aren't, they are what you make them.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm probably gonna burn out if I keep doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Seems likely. Remember that once you hit the wall it might take a year or so to recover, so this is a matter to be taken seriously.


[ QUOTE ]
If I do well they are just gonna promote me to another job I hate.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is not that dark, the better you do, the more power you will have and the more you can influence your own situation. If you do very well over a long period they will become dependent upon you and they will be willing to stretch far to satisfy you.


[ QUOTE ]
Parents: Life is suppose to suck. Work is suppose to suck. The majority of your time in this life is doing [censored] you hate. It's part of making a living. (Long speach about how hard we've worked for you to get ahead).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] Two different planets [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. Accepting their philosophy is a too large sacrifice for you to make, IMO.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

Yeah they do have a totally different outlook. I don't think I can change thier minds. They built thier life on it.

Within a month I'll get a new desk assingment. If I don't like it I'll probably give my roomates 30 days notice. I don't know if I should tell them or just do it.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

Do it before you tell them, if not it will only be some nasty weeks with them doing everything to try to make you change your mind. Tell them quite quickly after you do it.

Good luck!

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

i went pro with like a 1500$ bankroll lol

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

Dude, youre 22. Its time to make youre own decisions and do what you want, not what your parents want.

And by the way....your parents have nothing to live for besides you? Get real. Thats a bit overdramatic and egotistical if you ask me. You think theyre going to shrink up and die, if you are out of their lives for whatever reason?

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

Your avatar is so approriate here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

Lehighguy I know exactly where you are coming from man. Here's my experience-

I'm 24 and a 3L at law school. After 2 years of law school, I thought it sucked and I like running my software company and whatever else I do for cash so I said hey I'll give it a go, I've saved money, my wife has a good job, supports my decision and she pulls in enough for both of us anyways so we'll never be broke, I gotta quit law school and make it so I can come back and finish if I fall flat on my face. I told my parents and they weren't happy, they never paid for any college or school of mine (my choice, not theirs) but they thought I was making a big mistake. I saw no reason to dump another $18k and year of my life into law school, they thought it was incredibly dumb to leave.

They told me that they'd pay for my school this last year and take my wife and I on a couple really nice vacations, 1 fall and 1 spring so I don't get too stressed out. I still said no.

I thought about it though, and I ended up caving. They only would do this for me because they really thought I would be making a mistake and they really thought it would help me. So I ended up going back for them. They've never pointed me wrong and I can finish this out as sort of a favor to pay them back for everything they've done for me.

Now I'm a semester into it and I realize that this was retarded. My heart's not in it and it takes way too much time away from stuff that I actually want to do. Long story, short summary- don't live your life for other people- you are young, take a risk and do what you want to do. I'm living proof that taking a year out of your life to please your parents sucks. Now imagine working [censored] jobs you hate for the rest of your life to please yours. Don't do it! You only get 1 shot at your early 20s, go watch the movie Office Space and then do what you are passionate about.

Sorry that was so long.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

Well, they work all day. When they aren't working they just do chores or watch TV. They have no friends to my knowledge, no clubs, no hobbies except my Dad's singing once a week.

Work, eat, die.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

your parents have worked hard so you could get an education and be an intelligent person who could make their own decisions, not so you would do exactly what they want. now you are starting to use this to make your own decisions, you are an independent induvidual with options and choices and can make them yourself. they should be happy.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

first - i don't agree with some others that it's just so easy to blow-off your parents wishes and desires. yes...you're an adult and you're 22. But they're your parents and some family structures and pressures are very different from others.

I'm 35 and even I know that my situation is much easier with the parents giving an adequate amount of approval. If they were completely against it then that would make it tougher on me...even though they live in another state and I'm well into my adult-hood.
I would still do what I thought was best of course...but if the parents were completely disapproving that would certainly make it a bit tougher.



I think your strategy of looking at a different job is a good one.
The fact that they can't even accept you doing something else EXCEPT for the job that they 'groomed' you for is kind of telling.


Your problem isn't about how many hands you need to play before turning pro or anything like that.
It's about whether you can go in your direction...or whether you are going to continue to try to please your parents.


I suspect there would be an overwhelming amount of guilt on your part to leave your job. Because your parents are generally so miserable...and what they have been able to accomplish with you so far is their only sense of joy.


In the end, I do think you owe it to yourself to go down your own path...and that is likely going to be very different than the path the parents are trying to force you down.


You might want to consider to pursue the other job stuff.
Waiting for your Dad to say, "go for it" just isn't going to happen.
you're going to have to decide on your own whether or not to leave your current job.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

there are many other things (beyond the 3 mentioned here) to consider before one decides to give going pro a shot.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

lehighguy - I was in a similar situation for over a year and then quit about a month ago. I'm a little older, 24, and I spent a year and a half out of college as an analyst with a commercial bank. While this was obviously a lesser job than what you've got, what matters is that we both hate it. Mine was not nearly as intense as wall street, but I hated the culture (very sales-driven) and hated the work. My workweek wasn't nearly as bad, more like 40-50 hours a week, but I hated waking up in the morning and going to bed at night because I dreaded going to the office. By October of this year, I had already decided that I would be quitting this Dec (bonus time), when they told me that I was being relocated to a new office, and that I was expected to commute almost 2 hours each way, in South Florida traffic. I decided that was it and told them to shove it and quit (it's fun telling people at work that you can make more money playing poker, they never know what to say). That was Nov. 1. I was pretty sure that I could make at least as much money, if not more, playing cards until I found a new job.

Bankroll-wise, I only had a $3-$4k bankroll when I quit, after coming off a huge downswing at the 5/10 shorthanded. It sucked having to go pro with such a small roll and only a year's worth of taking poker seriously, but I had a month's worth of expenses saved, so I figured I had that long to build my roll up before I had to start living off of it. Obviously there was some risk there, so I lined up a buddy who would stake me if need be, dropped down a level to start off, and made sure I was always playing my best game. I can't remember what you said your bankroll is, but you're clearly a good enough player where you can get it back up to where you want it rather quickly. With no job tiring you out, I think its very feasible to start with a roll below what you'd like.

I've been amazed at how much better I've been playing and improving this month. I've spent it mainly learning NL, and that's going very well. The main thing with my improved win rate is that I'm not coming home from work and playing tired. I no longer want to get x number of hands in before bed, I play when I'm in the mood and I'm rested. That alone made a huge difference in my win rate. I wouldn't let the pokertracker numbers and the bankroll make this decision for you, have confidence in your game. Like you, I have no idea what my next job is going to be, quite possibly it will have nothing to do with finance, for the same reasons you talked about. But I'm enjoying the poker lifestyle enough that I'm going to take my time figuring out what the hell I want to do. I hope this helps, good luck bro.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

it is possible that you give poker a try and make your parents proud by doing what you love(if you are very successful at it). If poker didn't work out as you had expected, then sure your parents will be like I told you so and then you can say, yes dad, you did......and then get a job again. no love lost.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

If you want to quit your job and play poker, then do it. Remember to first pay back your parents for all the money they paid for you to go to school, since you are going to waste the degree they paid for.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

Soul - I don't think you made a retarded decision going back to law school. It's only another year of school, its not like you're in prison rotting away doing nothing. Plus, even if you don't become a lawyer you have the knowledge and experience that not many people can say they have. You still have an extra degree, and later on in life, it might come in quite handy.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

i sent you a PM

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

I"m really enjoying this whole thread as for once, almost everyone has something good to add...

I'm 24, I served 4 years in the Navy, I got out in August 2003. When I got out, I got hooked up and got a job at a local radio station as a producer/DJ. (I had alot of Pro-Tools and Cool-Edit expierence, not to mention a friend there). In the Navy I was an IT, trained mostly in Sat. Communications. (Under paid cable guy)

I recieve full medical from the Navy, as I involved in a work related incident overseas. I quit the radio station after almost 2 years and decided to go to school and get my GI Bill. I get a little over $1000 a month just to be enrolled in school full time. I go to a really inexpensive junior college.

I've played for the last 4 years and I really enjoy playing live, 4/8 10/20 area. I've recently done alot of studying on bonuses and rakeback and the internet game in general.

I know my family would not approve of me making this jump but then again, all I"m doing is school full time anyways. So I really have nothing to lose. I have 2k that i could afford to throw away if I am really that horrible ( I don't think I am) and as soon as finals are over I'm depositing the money and taking a full time stab at it over the break Dec. 13th - Jan 17th.

My goal is to double my bankroll. How feasible is that? I'm thinking it is. But I know it just depends on what i play, etc. I'm thinking 3/6?

I think after the Navy I really need to do something that makes me happy. I think everyone deserves to do what makes them happy.

Just think when we have kids, maybe we'll actually be accepting of this sorta behavoir and the phone calls saying "I'm turning into a full time poker player!"

Who knows if poker will even be on the map that far away. I'm hoping.

Re: You Can\'t Go Pro Without Already Being a Pro
 

The thing is that if you are making 70K in a decent career and take time off to take a shot at poker, it will be very hard to find a job since you will have to explain why you left your previous job. No job that pays that much will let you take that kind of leave since you are needed (as evidenced by the 60 hours worked per week). Careers that pay 70K+ don't like people who quit, for whatever reason.