Split the NL forums again?
 

Seems there are now six different forums for limit hold'em, while NL has only two, and they are both pretty crowded.

Small NL: .5/1 and lower (and 1/2 live games?)
Mid NL: 1/2 - 3/6
High NL: 5/10 and above

Or should we attempt to subdivide somehow by shorthanded vs full? Full games online seem to exist mostly only at the small stakes and 10/20 at Party, while short games exist at all limits, so perhaps something like:

Small SH NL: .5/1 and lower
Mid SH NL: 1/2 - 3/6
High SH NL: 5/10 and higher
Small-Mid Full NL: 3/6 and lower
High Full NL: 5/10 and higher

Any thoughts?

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

i think the forum structure is pretty good as is.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

I think you should put this in the "forum suggestions" forum

It is located on the sidebar, below OOT.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

I think this wold be pretty good:

Small NL: .5/1 and lower (and 1/2 live games?)
Mid NL: 1/2 - 3/6
High NL: 5/10 and above


The problem with separating shorthanded and full...it doesn't make as much sense for NL, since most posters here play both and oftentimes the situation doesn't even matter too much if it's full or short (I open raised from CO and BB calls....)

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

I like the idea. I think there needs to be another division. Your proposal makes sense, too.

After reading these forums for a little while now, I definately get the distinct feeling that what happens at 2/4 and 3/6 does not translate to 5/10 and up.

Also, in response to fsuplayer, there's no reason to move this thread to the "Forum Suggestions" section. It's deader n' dead with only 1 lousy thread.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should put this in the "forum suggestions" forum

It is located on the sidebar, below OOT.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that's new too.

I'll just wait for AZK to move this thread instead of posting a second one.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this wold be pretty good:

Small NL: .5/1 and lower (and 1/2 live games?)
Mid NL: 1/2 - 3/6
High NL: 5/10 and above


The problem with separating shorthanded and full...it doesn't make as much sense for NL, since most posters here play both and oftentimes the situation doesn't even matter too much if it's full or short (I open raised from CO and BB calls....)

[/ QUOTE ]

I also considered the same thing with regards to sh vs full. But the games do attract different types of players, especially at the smaller stakes where the full ring games are incredibly weak-tight while the 6-max games are filled with maniacs and loose-passives.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this wold be pretty good:

Small NL: .5/1 and lower (and 1/2 live games?)
Mid NL: 1/2 - 3/6
High NL: 5/10 and above


The problem with separating shorthanded and full...it doesn't make as much sense for NL, since most posters here play both and oftentimes the situation doesn't even matter too much if it's full or short (I open raised from CO and BB calls....)

[/ QUOTE ]

I also considered the same thing with regards to sh vs full. But the games do attract different types of players, especially at the smaller stakes where the full ring games are incredibly weak-tight while the 6-max games are filled with maniacs and loose-passives.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excactly! I liked your first proposal.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Small NL: .5/1 and lower (and 1/2 live games?)
Mid NL: 1/2 - 3/6
High NL: 5/10 and above


[/ QUOTE ]

should 5/10 be mid or high? i think its close

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

I think 2-4 to 5-10 should be midstakes and 10/20+ highstakes

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

i think the forum is fine how it currently is.

granted 3/6 isn't going to directly translate over to 25-50, but a number of important concepts and situations do.

people are going to be terrible and tough at all levels, and most posts take into account both how the table is playing in general, and the particular players involved.

i do however think the forum could use more stringent moderation.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

I've been advocating this for quite a while though personally I think the higher end dividing line is 5/10 6 max or 10/20, the 5/10 full ring tends to play a lot more like the 2/4 than the 10/20 in most cases.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think the forum is fine how it currently is.

granted 3/6 isn't going to directly translate over to 25-50, but a number of important concepts and situations do.

people are going to be terrible and tough at all levels, and most posts take into account both how the table is playing in general, and the particular players involved.

i do however think the forum could use more stringent moderation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right now a lot of us that play at the mid stakes don't really feel like we fit in too well in either forum. The journey from .10/.25 to 10/20 is more than just "aha! I suddenly know how to play high stakes poker!" The low limits are riddled with completely clueless players that make so many fundamental mistakes that any ABC player can easily defeat them. The high stakes games feature a lot of players that are thinking on the 43rd level that know all the odds and know basic hand reading. But there is a lot of middle ground where most players are paying attention and thinking past the first level. They know enough to beat a simple ABC player, but they can still be fooled and may not mix up their own play enough. Most of the things I'm thinking about during a 2/4 hand are irrelevent to a .25/.50 player. Right now it takes quite a bit of time to search through the forums to sort out the mid-stakes hands from the low-stakes hands (since the stakes often aren't mentioned in the thread title.)

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

I agree that bottom cut for middle limit should be 2/4 (so 200NL goes to smallstakes) because I thinkt its big jump between these two. I dont know where the next jump is.. I suppose between 5/10 and 10/20 or maybe 5/10 full and 5/10 6max.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

by 25/50 i meant dollars.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

current structure is fine.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
by 25/50 i meant dollars.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that. My point was that 2/4 and .25/.50 are completely different games, yet they share a forum.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
current structure is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

I think the structure is fine for the high players, but for those of us moving from 1-2 to 2-4, etc don't find too much help in the SS forum. A mid forum would be sweet.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

All the players in the lower end of 'high stakes' want to price themselves in the high stakes forum (5/10 i.e. "the current structure is fine") while not caring at all that 2/4 mid limit players and players trying to make a transition to higher stakes are getting the shaft since there are like 3-4 people in the small stakes that can give relevant advice to them lol

Games go to 100/200 and a bit of 200/400 online right? Why does 5/10 fit in with them?

People have presented reasonable arguments why there should be seperation. Saying you don't think it needs seperation and saying the thread doesn't belong here speaks a lot more to your ego than it does to your intellect.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

Small, Mid, and High would be fine.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Right now a lot of us that play at the mid stakes don't really feel like we fit in too well in either forum. The journey from .10/.25 to 10/20 is more than just "aha! I suddenly know how to play high stakes poker!" The low limits are riddled with completely clueless players that make so many fundamental mistakes that any ABC player can easily defeat them. The high stakes games feature a lot of players that are thinking on the 43rd level that know all the odds and know basic hand reading. But there is a lot of middle ground where most players are paying attention and thinking past the first level. They know enough to beat a simple ABC player, but they can still be fooled and may not mix up their own play enough. Most of the things I'm thinking about during a 2/4 hand are irrelevent to a .25/.50 player. Right now it takes quite a bit of time to search through the forums to sort out the mid-stakes hands from the low-stakes hands (since the stakes often aren't mentioned in the thread title.)

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

it doesn't matter how the forums are/will be split.

there will still be people giving awful analysis and advice with either no reasoning, or misapplied logic.

most of the hands will either be blatantly obvious what the proper action is, or will ask about a situation later in the hand that should have never arisen had something dumb not taken place at an earlier point in the hand.

i couldn't care less when some chud quotes for the fifth time to make an obvious call or fold.

the only time i put stock into consise answers is if the poster is someone i personally respect, and if i have come to a different conclusion or am unsure of all of their logic i will ask them to expound.

i swear reading some posts in this forum is worse than listening to my little cousin stutter through a bad beat story he took in a play money sit and go. thankfully my brain has grown used to just glazing over inane crap.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

And another thing.. lol

Why are so many 5/10 and 10/20 players sucking kane's a$$ right now and what does that tell us that might be relevant in this thread? haha

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Right now a lot of us that play at the mid stakes don't really feel like we fit in too well in either forum. The journey from .10/.25 to 10/20 is more than just "aha! I suddenly know how to play high stakes poker!" The low limits are riddled with completely clueless players that make so many fundamental mistakes that any ABC player can easily defeat them. The high stakes games feature a lot of players that are thinking on the 43rd level that know all the odds and know basic hand reading. But there is a lot of middle ground where most players are paying attention and thinking past the first level. They know enough to beat a simple ABC player, but they can still be fooled and may not mix up their own play enough. Most of the things I'm thinking about during a 2/4 hand are irrelevent to a .25/.50 player. Right now it takes quite a bit of time to search through the forums to sort out the mid-stakes hands from the low-stakes hands (since the stakes often aren't mentioned in the thread title.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. I don't post hands or even read these boards much anymore because I play a lot of .5/1 and 1/2 NL heads up or three handed - I don't want the SS advice because I think I'm probably past that level, and clearly I'm not ready for the Mid/High Stakes yet. And as you say, there is that middle range of players to beat - not too good, not too bad, who will call down with hands that marginally beat yours, who are willing to min-check-raise with draws when very shorthanded, etc.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the structure is fine for the high players, but for those of us moving from 1-2 to 2-4, etc don't find too much help in the SS forum. A mid forum would be sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree. There are only about 5 regular small stakes posters that are qualified to give advice on 1/2-3/6 hands.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this wold be pretty good:

Small NL: .5/1 and lower (and 1/2 live games?)
Mid NL: 1/2 - 3/6
High NL: 5/10 and above




[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

Why not have 6 NL forums

Small 6 max and full
Mid ""
High""

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this wold be pretty good:

Small NL: .5/1 and lower (and 1/2 live games?)
Mid NL: 1/2 - 3/6
High NL: 5/10 and above




[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

like i said, i think the forums are fine the way they are. but the above looks like the best way to split things if we are going to.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Small NL: .5/1 and lower (and 1/2 live games?)
Mid NL: 1/2 - 3/6
High NL: 5/10 and above


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this idea because right now I'm at .5/1 and all the best advice comes from the 1/2 or higher players so transitioning would be harder [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

definately split.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

I like yours, soah. Most of the SSNL forum consists of easy questions and such, mostly robotic and mechanical answers. MH develops excellent discussions on topics that SSNL doesn't touch on. I hate being barred from these discussions because I only play 1/2.

I like it. The only thing I fear is that the MH players stay in High Limit, thus leaving me out in the dark once again.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

The messages from the vast majority of those in favor of splitting the forum can be translated as follows:

"Is there any way to create a high stakes forum that is limited to me and the 10-15 posters that are worthy of my attention. After all, I'm a busy guy and a damn expert poker player, and I can't take the time to wade through all the riff-raff."

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

What are the various nl stakes?
.01/.02
.05/.10
.10/.20
.15/.25
.25/.50
.50/1
1/2
2/4
3/6
5/10
10/20
10/25
25/50
50/100
100/200
200/400???

The 5/10 players are whack if they consider themselves high limit lol. They have been getting a free ride in the mid/high forum, leaving the players in the few limits below them without a hand up while having the players on the few levels above them giving them coaching to help them improve.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

Ok, so if we cut out 5/10 from the high-stakes board, then we end up with 95% 10/20 hands. The people who play higher rarely post hands, and 50/100, 100/200, 200/400 are pretty much the same thing (same player pool?).

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think the forum structure is pretty good as is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

Your analysis is faulty because it does not consider the quantity of players playing at each level, or the point at which the quality of the players begins to change. How often do you see games above 50/100 running? And why should 10/20 and 10/25 be counted separately? I really don't care too much whether 5/10 is considered Mid or High, but your arguments are completely absurd.

Essentially I can see three stages in development of a player:

They start out clueless playing in Small stakes. In order to beat their clueless opponents, they must learn "ABC" poker. They learn to fold marginal hands, they wait for big hands, and they take money from people who can't fold marginal hands. The small stakes games consist of ABC players preying on clueless players.

Once the ABC players start winning, they move up in stakes. Eventually they reach games that don't contain the completely clueless players. In fact, most of their opponents play ABC poker and have also moved up from the small stakes. If these players just wait for big hands, they will just break even and trade their money back and forth. So they work on strategies to exploit ABC players. Semi-bluffs and bluffs become more effective (since their opponents can fold marginal hands), and meta-game starts to matter. The mid stakes games consist of thinking players preying on ABC players.

Eventually the winners at the mid stakes games move up to a level where they can't find the straightforward ABC players. Their opponents are tricky and thinking. Now it's time to adjust strategies again. The winners at the High stakes games are the ones that are capable of beating the thinking players.

So far I haven't seen anyone give a reason for *why* they think the current setup is fine (and unless I've missed something, none of the people saying that are actually playing in the proposed Mid stakes range). My arguments for splitting the forum are a combination of what I've written above, in conjunction with the fact that the two NL forums are becoming increasingly busy. If you believe either of those reasons is flawed, could you please explain why?

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

I agree that 5/10 is not high stakes, but advice that is suitable for that game cannot be found in SSNL. The mid forum could probably consist of 2-4 -> 5/10 in my opinion

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

As far as this forum is concerned, 100/200 and 200/400 can effectively be ignored.

Re: Split the NL forums again?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The messages from the vast majority of those in favor of splitting the forum can be translated as follows:

"Is there any way to create a high stakes forum that is limited to me and the 10-15 posters that are worthy of my attention. After all, I'm a busy guy and a damn expert poker player, and I can't take the time to wade through all the riff-raff."

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't really read this thread at all, did you? I'm not asking for Matt Flynn to moderate and El Diablo to have the most posts - I'm asking for a Mid Stakes forum for .5/1 - 3/6 NL players, where they can post hands without the beginners coming in and recommending weak-tight strategies, or the condescending posts from the 10/20 types that say 'Wrong forum'.

As an addendum to soah's nice explanation of mid stakes - I want a forum for Mid players where firing two barrel bluffs isn't instantly viewed as chip-spewing. Where meta-game has *some* importance.