I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

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20/40 10 handed

Table has a few tight players I haven't seen much from over 40+ hands since I sat down. Villain in this hand is on major tilt. Bluff raised me on my river lead earlier with T4o UI after decent action each earlier street. 3-bets light and caps lighter. Maybe 40/30/2 ? Couple other mediocre players, not really much to worry about. I called him down earlier with J high after I missed a flush draw and lost. We've been in a few pots and I've won maybe 3/4 of them but he doesnt stop betting.

I pick up black 72 UTG and open.

Tiltboy 3 seats behind me 3-bets.
SB who just sat down a couple hands ago and posted UTG+1 cold-calls two and a half.
I call.

Flop: 3 2 T r (1 heart)

SB checks, I bet, tiltboy raises(as expected), SB calls and I start getting a sinking feeling.

Turn: K h

check, check, Tiltboy bets, SB folds, I call.

River: 4 s

check, Tiltboy bets, I call.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

"Flop: 3 2 T r (1 heart)"

LOL

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Flop: 3 2 T r (1 heart)"

LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

It's relevent because the turn was a second heart. Hence continuation bets are more likely for some hands and less likely for other holdings which villain could have.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

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I pick up black 72 UTG and open.

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lol. nh. Personally, I only play red 72 UTG.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Flop: 3 2 T r (1 heart)"

LOL

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It's relevent because the turn was a second heart. Hence continuation bets are more likely for some hands and less likely for other holdings which villain could have.

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It seems that continuation bets are equally likely from all villains hands on all boards, given the description. Hence, the comedy.

For me, the best part is imagining someone good enough to make all the subtle realizations about how his opponents are playing... this guy caps light... this guy is mediocre, no threat... only to conclude that the best play is to raise UTG with 72!

This has to be a joke.

-Eric


my 2 cents.
Eric

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Flop: 3 2 T r (1 heart)"

LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

It's relevent because the turn was a second heart. Hence continuation bets are more likely for some hands and less likely for other holdings which villain could have.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems that continuation bets are equally likely from all villains hands on all boards, given the description. Hence, the comedy.

For me, the best part is imagining someone good enough to make all the subtle realizations about how his opponents are playing... this guy caps light... this guy is mediocre, no threat... only to conclude that the best play is to raise UTG with 72!

This has to be a joke.

-Eric


my 2 cents.
Eric

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Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

unfortunately its not a joke....doh...that can't say too much good about me.

so I do have some fairly specific thoughts on how this guy plays--mostly cause he is on major tilt and i've seen him do a lot of silly stuff over the course of the session so far.

however the rest of the table is primarily unknowns. they are primarily pretty tight so if one of them 3-bets me its a pretty easy flop check-fold.

Preflop:
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when I raised here I really did not want this guy involved.
Given his recent performance I'd guess I have about a 20% chance he will 3-bet me after i raise UTG.

once he 3-bet i was like man this didnt work out too well--what a waste of 3SB. Then the SB called two and I was liking my situation even less.

Feel free to give input on the preflop--its not something I do a lot of. But I def have done it more than once. Maybe once every 3-400 hands or so. Is this a no-no at anything but the tightest tables? Am I strictly aiming to steal the blinds? If it is to impact shania at all then occassionally there must be some postflop play and a showdown at least sometimes, right?

I have heard someone say do it only with your absolute trash, and mentally decide before the hand to play it like its the nuts. That seems like a recipe for spewage and it hasnt worked out to well for me the couple times I've tried it.

I've also heard that its better to pick something like K2s that has some potential showdown value to play this way.

Thoughts?

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

Postflop:
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PF raise , getting 3-bet and seeing the SB call 2.5 cold is obviously very discouraging giving my modest holding. However, the flop texture was pretty decent for me...if I was HU via tiltboy alone. Having just seen the SB post UTG+1 4 hands previously I didn't expect him to be super solid but saw I had hit a pair and decided my best course of action was to bet and let tiltboy face the SB with two bets and see if I had a shot at anything.

The SB calls two more on the flop getting 6:1 for his money and now I feel I'm really screwed.

Turn comes a king and I give up. I def can't overcall but as soon as the SB folds I start getting flashbacks of the time this guy bluff raised me with T4o UI on the river and decided it was possible he was bluffing. On the other hand a lot of his 3-betting hands either contain a K or already have me beat. I'm getting 8.5:1 on the turn call itself but I know I will have to call a river bet as well. So 5.75:1 if I call both turn and river bets. If I had to guess (just my gut talking here) I'd guess I'm good maybe 30% of the time here.

I am really curious as to how I am supposed to analyze this kind of scenario and make the right decision postflop.

Here's what I know...

On the turn:
I felt the king was a horrible card for me but I also didnt feel his bet necessarily meant much. The pot is giving me 8.5:1. Drawing to my 5 outs I would need 9.4:1. Given there is a chance I am still ahead this call seems OK to me. Is this right or wrong?

I think my 5 outs are clean.

Not knowing what he has, but knowing how poorly i feel about my own hand I wouldn't like to call a river bet if a Q or A fell on the river. So do I call those 8 outs for him?

Its when I put both the turn and river into the analysis and start talking about his outs vs. my outs that I get confused.

Any pointers?

Thx in advance.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any pointers?

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Inherit.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any pointers?

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Inherit.

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Here's a pointer for you...dont be such a jerk.

I'm coming here humbly asking for help. I played a hand very questionably and want to know just how wrong I was.

Even if the consensus is something like "You still suck enough postflop you should never raise 72o UTG ever again" thats fine. I'm here to learn.

I asked some legit questions about how to analyze the turn and river decisions and hope to learn form this thread.

I'm admitting all the stuff I dont know and taking the time to write out my best guesses as to how to analyze the situation...if you dont want to help me out then dont click reply.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

OK. Sorry you didn't get my one word answer.

How about this: "If you fold 72o UTG preflop, you'll forego all the philosophical questions and analysis that you are asking about the postflop. If you do not fold it you will need to Inherit a large fortune to finance your poker addiction".

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

OK preflop sucks. thats fine.
Now onto postflop.

Let me rephrase so you can participate Baulucky. Same table, same players, same reads. I open with 77 UTG

Preflop--I open, tiltboy 3-bets, SB calls 2.5 cold, I call
Flop: comes 2 6 T r (1 heart)--I bet, tiltboy raises, SB calls 2. I call.
Turn: K h--SB checks, I check, tiltboy bets...

Same questions as I asked above.
Can you help now?

Your right I could somehow inherit lots of money and then I wouldnt need to learn to play poker well. On the other hand i could jsut learn to play well postflop and then I wouldn't need worry about trying to displace my existing parents who I like very much.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

Ignore the idiots. Your question is valid. Some people here need a lesson in logic at no point did you conclude that:

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'that the best play is to raise UTG with 72!'


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you simply painted a picture & said what you did, you didn't justify it. Nor did you suggest that you regularly do it. I'm pretty sure at sometime or another I've raised 10-handed with something garbage like 72o UTG. I've seen plenty of winning players who don't need to 'inherit' make this play. In fact I'd there is a case to prefer it UTG than say UTG +3 since most of the 'hand-value' lies in picking up the blinds, or getting just the BB to call & fold tamely - UTG is the best place to elicit that combinational response. Though the implied-value (meta to some) lies in getting it shown down, or showing it as the winning hand - and you must show it if you get the chance. In fact its the implied/meta value, that makes the one-off raise with 7-2 UTG better, imo, than doing so later/stealing positions.

Anyway, it is important to know how to play off the map, very important, since many of us of us find ourselves in awful positons where we've made crap decisions from time to time; and it is a pretty bad decision, but it doesn't make you a bad player.

I think in the end you just go the whole way. You've very likely got 5 outs on the river, so its a call. And once you're there you have plenty of odds to call a maniac who could just be banging away with Ax.

I'm not too enamoured with the attempted-isolation bet on the flop. I'd check call and prlly call the turn after SB folds, as his hand could be much weaker in this scenario, then after the flop in the real scenario (where you might expect him to slow down on the turn with the CC from the SB).


chaos

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villain in this hand is on major tilt.

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I pick up black 72 UTG and open.

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Who's on tilt?

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain in this hand is on major tilt.

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I pick up black 72 UTG and open.

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Who's on tilt?

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Thanks so much for your constructive input.

To answer your question...He is the one on tilt--this becomes relevant postflop. I stated quite clearly in my post that he is tilting by raising too loosely and bluffing and betting too much. I also explained that I didn't want him to come along when I made this raise. I am not on tilt. This is a concept I have read about before and was merely experimenting with applying it to my game. I am in the middle of a solid session and have a pretty solid image vs. the rest of the table.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

If it's a concept you wish to explore, doing it when there's a guy to your left tilting and likely to 3 bet you doesn't sound like the ideal time to try it...

BTW fwiw it's a pretty bogus concept in full table games.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Villain in this hand is on major tilt.

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I pick up black 72 UTG and open.

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Who's on tilt?

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Thanks so much for your constructive input.

To answer your question...He is the one on tilt--this becomes relevant postflop. I stated quite clearly in my post that he is tilting by raising too loosely and bluffing and betting too much. I also explained that I didn't want him to come along when I made this raise. I am not on tilt. This is a concept I have read about before and was merely experimenting with applying it to my game. I am in the middle of a solid session and have a pretty solid image vs. the rest of the table.

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Where did you read about the concept of raising utg 72o in a ten handed game? This is awful in the situation you described.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

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If it's a concept you wish to explore, doing it when there's a guy to your left tilting and likely to 3 bet you doesn't sound like the ideal time to try it...


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Point taken.

From the times I've tried this more like 5 or 6 handed this kind of thing seems a lot more legit. Assuming you have a decent image and the table is relatively tight its a nice way to pick up some blinds or take it down with a single flop bet...at elast a couple people above seem to echo this.

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BTW fwiw it's a pretty bogus concept in full table games.

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Thanks for going beyond the "your a moron" response and actually telling me that you dont agree with the concept and giving a reason why it was especially bad in this situation.

Had you been "quantum leap" style transported into the hand at the flop what line would you take postflop?

Thanks

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

I would have played it the same way postflop as you, if the villain is indeed as tilty/maniacal as I am assuming he was.

Right, short handed your cards are not going to matter as much so doing this from time to time has less negatives (namely less likely someone wakes up behind you with 88+ and has you drawing super slim).

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

Thanks a lot for the confirmation on the postflop line.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

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Where did you read about the concept of raising utg 72o in a ten handed game? This is awful in the situation you described.

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Ok, well a couple discalimers, I've only been playing about one year and I've read quite a bit of different stuff in the process of learning. I dug around and tried to figure where I got this from.

I think I got a couple different things mixed up in my head and kind of made it up thinking I read it somewhere.


Here is the basis for raising a non-premium hand UTG Clearly this is different as he is choosing hands with a lot more value like 23s or 87s.

I think the 72o notion is something I have misapplied from some NL reading I've done. I think Harrington's Volume 1 or maybe Super System... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] talks about playing 72o as if it were a premium hand. Or maybe it was in a squeeze play scenario...not sure. Anyways it wasn't limit UTG ten handed.

I'd guess there is likely some personal ego element that led me to combine the two concepts..."how cool would that be if I could own someone with the worst possible hand."

Obviously not good poker thinking.

The other downside to 72o is that if you show it down at any level above about 2/4 everyone knows it was "a move." Something like 78s or Q6s has the edge in that it has more equity and there is also a greater chance your opponents will define you as a moron instead of a tricky player.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

OP opened 72o UTG. I likened his level of detail to hitting myself repeatedly in the groin with a baseball bat, and then telling the ER doctor that I'm lactose intolerant. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

"Feel free to give input on the preflop--its not something I do a lot of. But I def have done it more than once. Maybe once every 3-400 hands or so."

Have you ever folded 7-2 offsuit and then thought about coming to 2+2 to ask if it was a mistake?

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

So uhh... who won the hand?

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

"Who's on tilt?"

dont be boring

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

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Have you ever folded 7-2 offsuit and then thought about coming to 2+2 to ask if it was a mistake?

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Haha.

If you know the player is on tilt and likely to raise, I think I would want to limp-reraise my 72o and trap the entire field. I think you definately left some bets on the table.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

No I haven't.

I didn't mean 72o specifically--more just the notion of raising UTG with the non-premium. And maybe people would have ideas like thats a fine idea--just not with a hand that horrible. When someone asked where I got the idea i dug around and figured out myself that it was a pretty horible idea. Specifically I need something more like 56s and better table conditions.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

Well I think most readers of this forum already know i won the hand as I appear to be regarded as a total noob and this is the kind of thing noobs do--play like a moron, get lucky and then come post about it as if they are poker gods.

I've tried to avoid that last part--but the first couple aspects of it I seem to have down.

Villain showed AJo and MHIG.

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

i like ur play, fine to me, and i like that u opened with junk, however i would prefer suited junk or 27s

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

[ QUOTE ]
No I haven't.

I didn't mean 72o specifically--more just the notion of raising UTG with the non-premium. And maybe people would have ideas like thats a fine idea--just not with a hand that horrible. When someone asked where I got the idea i dug around and figured out myself that it was a pretty horible idea. Specifically I need something more like 56s and better table conditions.

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do you realize the tangible effect doing something like this has to have on your oppoenents to justify taking a huge -EV hit first in at a 10-person table

plus, its 72o. its not a random hand. it is universally known as the worst hand. if you got to show the table your 72o, then they would likely think that you thought it would be fun to do it, and not that youre a maniac who raises EVERYTHING UTG. i think something like 53s would have more of an effect since its a random hand and its a lot less -EV raising up front. not that it would be ok, but 72o is probably the worst choice of any hand

Re: I open 72o UTG get 3bet by tiltboy and call down my bottom pair.
 

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do you realize the tangible effect doing something like this has to have on your oppoenents to justify taking a huge -EV hit first in at a 10-person table

plus, its 72o. its not a random hand. it is universally known as the worst hand. if you got to show the table your 72o, then they would likely think that you thought it would be fun to do it, and not that youre a maniac who raises EVERYTHING UTG. i think something like 53s would have more of an effect since its a random hand and its a lot less -EV raising up front. not that it would be ok, but 72o is probably the worst choice of any hand

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