Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

I figured these for standard bets, but I'd like to better understand why. If you agree that these are standard bets, could you explain with math, EV analysis, pro and cons, etc.

In both hands you can assume that you have a mix of tight and loosish players, with nothing wild concerning aggression or passivity. Sort of the normal mix of opponents you'd expect to have at a table.

Hand 1: MP1, MP2, MP3 and the CO limp, the Button and SB fold, and I check in the BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
I bet

-----------------------------------------

Hand 2: EP limp, LP limp, SB completes, I check in BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Flop: (4 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, I bet

Is this the ideal line?

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

i dont bet with J-hi ever unless i wanna bluff someone out. i dont think you are gonna bluff anyone out, therefore just check.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

I bet both of these as well, but I think hand 2 is more standard than hand 1.

Hand 2 I like because this board is so low that there is a large chance it missed everybody and thus your FE goes way up thus making the bet +EV.

For the second hand the Q is a worrisome card as lots of limping hands will contain Qs, thus your FE isn't as high in this hand. OTOH, with a larger field and a bk straight draw your equity in this pot is high enough that a bet here called by multiple players is +EV.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

I'm not sure either of these is a "standard" bet OOP. The worst thing that could happen would be for the next player to put money into the pot to be holding TP, a weakly-preflopped overpair or UI overcards that he wants to protect, and so he raises you, forces the rest of the field out, and leaves you HU with a 35% (give or take, you've got BDSDs in both) and the taste of regurgitated lunch in your mouth. So, in the absence of another way to win (e.g. top pair + FD) I'm going to check these flops and see if someone else bets for me.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure either of these is a "standard" bet OOP. The worst thing that could happen would be for the next player to put money into the pot to be holding TP, a weakly-preflopped overpair or UI overcards that he wants to protect, and so he raises you, forces the rest of the field out, and leaves you HU with a 35% (give or take, you've got BDSDs in both) and the taste of regurgitated lunch in your mouth. So, in the absence of another way to win (e.g. top pair + FD) I'm going to check these flops and see if someone else bets for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Perhaps you'll find something useful here

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

1) Value

If three people call, then you've made money on your bet. I don't think I need to go further here.

2) Cleans up pair outs

Your opponent's don't have to have top pair. In hand 1, you want JTo to fold. If you can make a bet that doesn't cost you anything but clears up outs - well, that's a good bet.

3) Chance to win UI

If two people call, then you break even on your bet. But since you took the lead on the flop you'll have a chance to take the pot down later in the hand. If you had checked the flop, your odds of winning UI go down precipitously, as you won't be able to represent top pair.

If only one person calls, then you lost money on the bet...but your chances of winning the pot UI are even higher.

So, really, regardless of the number of callers, the bet is going to make you money somehow.

Will

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

i bet both of these...

hand 1...huge field, somewhat ragged board so you can't be sure a bet will go in or where it will come from, so just bet it yourself...your J might also be an out here...

hand 2...super ragged board, its possible you pick this one up here often i think, and other times you will pick it up with a turn bet...on this board your pair outs are also somewhat likely to be good...

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont bet with J-hi ever unless i wanna bluff someone out. i dont think you are gonna bluff anyone out, therefore just check.

[/ QUOTE ]

A loose passive game with 7 to the flop and you hold J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the BB.

Flop is T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Are you ready to bet J high now?

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

In Hand 1 I would usually bet, but I am a little concerned about ending up heads-up for 2 SB's versus whoever happens to have a queen.

In Hand 2 I think the chances are better that the flop missed everyone. People may peel, or people may fold. I don't really expect to take it down immediately all that often, but I'll be happy if I do, and if I don't I still may have 15 outs.

By the way, if the first hand were taking place last night, I would get raised by the person with a bigger flush draw, and I'd make my flush on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Hand 1. I check.

Hand 2. I bet.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

in these large multiway pots your flush draw has a decently big equity edge. You make money on every bet that goes in.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Betting is fun. Winning unimproved when someone peels the flop and decides to give up on the turn is fun. Winning with turned middle pair more fun still. Winning with a J-high flush when the turn/river come running hearts and the naked K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] folded to your flop bet is more fun still. Having other players call a similar flop when you hit bottom two and they have a suspicious pair and they remember that you bet 4-flushes OOP is also fun. Same when they decide to punish you and raise TP when you flop a set and they can't figure out how much action to give you so then end up spraying like a donk. So is being hard to read. Something about EV and equity too, but I like the fun stuff.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

I've been thinking about this same thing lately. The value bet is based on having the callers which is why jamming in position with previous callers makes sense as you know how many are in the pot for the round already.

If you bet and get one caller and lose the others then it isn't a value bet. If you get no callers or 3 then it is good.

If you check and it gets checked through, you get a free turn but probably won't get much action if your card hits unless you are behind.

If you check and there is an early position bet, and callers and you can raise then it is a good thing.

If you check and there is a late position bet, you will want to call to keep people in.

I'm not far enough along to express these conditions mathematically to determine EV, but it seems like there are more good things than bad that can come out of checking the draw OOP.

Now I'm off to read Q-tips post where this has all probably already been decided.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

What's UI mean

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

UI = unimproved

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Great reply Dave.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Betting is fun. Winning unimproved when someone peels the flop and decides to give up on the turn is fun. Winning with turned middle pair more fun still. Winning with a J-high flush when the turn/river come running hearts and the naked K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] folded to your flop bet is more fun still. Having other players call a similar flop when you hit bottom two and they have a suspicious pair and they remember that you bet 4-flushes OOP is also fun. Same when they decide to punish you and raise TP when you flop a set and they can't figure out how much action to give you so then end up spraying like a donk. So is being hard to read. Something about EV and equity too, but I like the fun stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post, well said. I think in a lot of small stakes games, especially live, worrying about someone raising your bet and driving out the rest of the field is probably something that's overstated here.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Holy Crap that thread is awesome. Great link Qtip.

I'd bet both of these, I like #2 a bit better though, mainly because diamonds look pretty.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

I'll bet those flops 100% of the time if we are 3-handed.

If we are 4 handed or more, I only bet them about 50% when 4 handed and about 25% if we have more. This is good enough to make me dificult to read when I later bet a similar flop with top pair or 2 pair. Note that I won't bet this flop when multi-handed if there is a LAG that is going to act in EP.

The reason I don't always bet these 4 handed or more is that I really don't want soemone in EP to raise and knock out the field.

I'm pretty sure Jenifer Harmon advises against betting these flops in SS2 for this very reason.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Everyone is talking about betting flush draws on the flop to create a pot and odds. You can also take it down UI sometimes. However, I only see all this working if you also lead the flop with many other hands. If your opponents know you will only lead into a large field with a flush draw, then they will either 1) Kill your action by raising or 2) Call you down and fold when the flush hits. To me, in order to make these bets pay off, you have to be willing to lead with other hands in blind position such as TP, top two, or a straight draw. It seems like many players replying in this post only lead out of blinds with a flush draw.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Few small stakes players are so observant. Also, we're betting our monsters and strong hands as well, and sometimes our top pair hands depending on the board and what type of players are where.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Why would you assume I (or other posters in this thread) wouldn't bet top pair, middle pair, 2-pair, a set, a straight, OESD's and other hands from the blinds?

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

From what I read, everytime TP, top two, or a set is flopped, it always goes check/raise. Unless if the board is coordinated, in which case a few people decide to lead with those hands. A quick example I can think of to illustrate this...

Let's say we're dealt Q4o in BB. Four limpers, SB completes, we check. Flop is Q 9h 5h. I don't think anyone would lead here. Most would go for a check/raise against a position bet or simply check/fold to an early bet. Now let's say our holecards have changed to Q9. I still don't see anyone leading this, everyone is going for the check/raise to try and knock out some players. Again, we change our holecards to 55. Still don't see anyone leading. With this hand, I can foresee a check/call on the flop and a check/raise on the turn. Some might even take this line with Q9.

Finally, let's say our holecards have changed to K8h. Now everyone is leading. See my point?

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

I'd lead with Q4o there. I think you're mistaking this with hands where there is a PFR, and you can count on someone to bet. When you can't count on anyone to bet, you bet.

With the Q9 and 55 example, you must be reading a different forum, because we are constantly being betting our strong hands, or telling people to bet them when they check these flops.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Alright, then I guess I'm talking about those players who don't lead.

FWIW, I would not lead out with 55 on that flop. It would blow up the pot so any flush and straight draw will draw against you. With a check/raise on the flop (or the turn), you will definetely knock people out. I think very strong hands like Q9 or 55 require pot manipulation to prevent drawouts.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, then I guess I'm talking about those players who don't lead.

FWIW, I would not lead out with 55 on that flop. It would blow up the pot so any flush and straight draw will draw against you. With a check/raise on the flop (or the turn), you will definetely knock people out. I think very strong hands like Q9 or 55 require pot manipulation to prevent drawouts.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this last post is just dead wrong.

Not saying you aren't smart...just saying your poker thinking kinda sucks.

But don't worry. Stick around and you'll get better.

Will

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
From what I read, everytime TP, top two, or a set is flopped, it always goes check/raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, but people who always check/raise their flop monsters like top2 oder set play poor poker.

to the question: first hand: the bet with a flushdraw is profitable if at least two and better three or more peolpe put chips into the pot. Hero didn't have the nut flushdraw so I put him on 8 outs, that means, that at least three people should put money on the flop to make Heros bet a value bet. Due to the fact that hero has no additional outs in this large field I prefer check here to wait for the action and to make a value raise if someone bets behind him. against this large field its unlikely that hero gets the pot without SD. so he should prepare to check/call turn unless the turn is HU.

In the second hand hero has additional straight outs to his flushdraw, in total maybe 10 outs. In this spot I prefer a lead because hero can cap the flop vs only two opponents for value with a potequity of around 38%

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Alright, then I guess I'm talking about those players who don't lead.

FWIW, I would not lead out with 55 on that flop. It would blow up the pot so any flush and straight draw will draw against you. With a check/raise on the flop (or the turn), you will definetely knock people out. I think very strong hands like Q9 or 55 require pot manipulation to prevent drawouts.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this last post is just dead wrong.

Not saying you aren't smart...just saying your poker thinking kinda sucks.

But don't worry. Stick around and you'll get better.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, then I guess I'm talking about those players who don't lead.

FWIW, I would not lead out with 55 on that flop. It would blow up the pot so any flush and straight draw will draw against you. With a check/raise on the flop (or the turn), you will definetely knock people out. I think very strong hands like Q9 or 55 require pot manipulation to prevent drawouts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lead with a lot of strong hands out of the blind, including top 2, a set or even a flopped straight/flush.

Especially playing $5/$10, if a pot is not raised pre-flop, then you usually have loose-passives in the hand who will allow the flop to be checked through.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

I dont like the lead in hand 1. Its too risky someone will isolate you imo.

Re: Betting flush draws into a field OOP
 

Posting blind.

Shant,

One huge advantage of betting in these spots is to disguise your hand, which allows you to collect more on later streets.

The disadvantage, of course, is a raise that blows away your field and spoils your odds. Since you only need 2 callers to be nearly breaking even, though, the times when this happens are more than offset by:

1. the extra value you gain those times you get 3+ callers.
2. as i said above, the extra money you gain on later streets b/c your hand is disguised.

gm