Tipping in higher limit games
 

I searched for this buy didn't find it. In the middle to upper limit games, players have all $5 chips or higher ($25, $100, etc...). How do you tip the dealers? Do people tip the dealer $5 a pot in a $10/$20 LHE game? Or do people keep a stack of $1 chips for tips?

Thanks

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

Some people keep whites, some people have the dealer chop a bigger chip and some people just don't tip. $1 or so is still pretty standard, though, and the dealer is not making $5/hand in a red chip game the way he might make $1/hand in a white chip game.

SpaceAce

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

$1 is the standard tip, even in $100-$200 games. You ask the dealer for change if you don't have the proper denomination chip.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

I spoke to a dealer during the WSOP this year, who was dealing a very loose, big-stakes PL Omaha game, with many pots being over 10,000. He said that all of his tips were only a few dollars each, maybe a 5 dollar tip here and there. Crazy.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

This thread is now linked for future reference at http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/Tips . Everyone's heartily invited to add other relevant tipping threads.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

Dealers don't deserve more money for pushing chips of a different color. If dealers do a good job, they get a $1 tip when they push me a pot, regardless of size. $2 for the occasional monster if I like the dealer. If dealers got 5 or 10 bucks a hand, they would make a hell of a lot of money.

Jeff

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

I won a big pot one time of like 1200 (this is big to me) bucks and gave the dealer a 10 dollar tip. Was this out of line? She was a great dealer though and made the game a lot of fun.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

What if "dealer always kill you?" Their tip would be that you don't kick their ass on their way out of the box, right?

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dealers don't deserve more money for pushing chips of a different color.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess it depends on whether you see tokes as, "I'm rewarding you for your hard work," or "I'm sharing part of my recent good fortune with you." I tend to see it as a mix of the two -- but of course, that suits me as a low-limit player because it gives me an excuse to tip half-dollars at the Foxwoods $2/4.

Just curious, would you apply the same logic to a several-day $500 buyin tournament (if such exists) as you would to the World Series of Poker Main Event? And shouldn't the person who finishes on the bubble tip almost as much as the one who just barely makes the money, since they both generated about the same amount of work for the dealers? It's just interesting to me that in tournaments it's taken for granted that the person is tipping based on their win, but in ring games, "Dealers don't deserve more money for pushing chips of a different color," is apparently accepted as conventional wisdom among high-limit players.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

If dealers don't infringe on my action, I'm not going to infringe on theirs. Tip what makes you happy; if you like the dealer and feel like being generous, do it. That said, dealers probably deal about 30 hands an hour with fills and other delays. If they make $1 a hand, I think that is a good living for most people. Say they get stiffed on 10 hands and $1 for the rest. Thats $20 an hour. 40 hrs a week is $3200 a month before taxes (just under 40k a year). I think that's a fair wage for what they do.

Also, I play for money which is quite meaningful for me. While I have fun playing, I don't play for fun. Tips come off my bottom line so I want to be reasonable and not cut into my earn to badly...that said, I make sure not to stiff b/c I want competant dealing staff and know they need to be adequately compensated to want to stay there. I'm always happy when a tourist showers dealers with big tips and would never say anything to discourage that.

Jeff

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

Say you are a pro player and play 40-80 for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week (50 hours). Assume 40 hands an hour and that you win 4 of them. With a $1 tip regardless of pot size, you will spend 200 a week on tips (800 a month, 9600 a year). Double that amount and you will see that this can have a significant impact on a serious player's year-end earn. I want to see dealers compensated fairly (and I think 30 or 40 grand a year is very fair for them), but I also have to look out for number one here. If a dealer is spectacular, I may tip more and if a dealer is terrible or bad for the game, I may not tip at all. But I respect all dealers who do their job well and in a professional manner.

As for tournaments, I don't play them so I wouldn't know.

Jeff

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's just interesting to me that in tournaments it's taken for granted that the person is tipping based on their win, but in ring games, "Dealers don't deserve more money for pushing chips of a different color," is apparently accepted as conventional wisdom among high-limit players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play for fun, so maybe my philosophy is different. I take this analogy: when tipping a waitress - you usually tip 15-20%. If the meal is more expensive you tip more. If she sucks, you may stiff her a little on the tip, say, 10%, and if she's good, you'll give her a little more. But the constant in all this is that the percentage is in relation to how much your bill came out to. It's not like she's carrying heavier plates or anything for more expensive dishes - it's all the same whether it's a burger or kobe beef.

I do tip more if I win a bigger pot. For a 1200 pot in a 1/2NL game, i'd probably tip 15, b/c that's a HUGE pot for 1/2 (600BB), maybe more depending on my mood, how much of the pot was my money, and how good the dealer is. If it's a $5 pot, I don't tip anything. Tipping $1 for a 600BB pot i think is being a bit on the cheap side.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tipping $1 for a 600BB pot i think is being a bit on the cheap side.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll tell you what...next $48,000 pot I get shoved in a 40-80 game, I'll be sure the dealer gets some reds.

Jeff

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Say you are a pro player and play 40-80 for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week (50 hours). Assume 40 hands an hour and that you win 4 of them. With a $1 tip regardless of pot size, you will spend 200 a week on tips (800 a month, 9600 a year). Double that amount and you will see that this can have a significant impact on a serious player's year-end earn. I want to see dealers compensated fairly (and I think 30 or 40 grand a year is very fair for them), but I also have to look out for number one here. If a dealer is spectacular, I may tip more and if a dealer is terrible or bad for the game, I may not tip at all. But I respect all dealers who do their job well and in a professional manner.

As for tournaments, I don't play them so I wouldn't know.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. Consider how much even more it will effect the low limit 3-6 to 9/18 player who plays part time on the side for extra cash. If you start tipping over $1/pot, you are going to start cutting 1/3 or more into your already meager hourly rate. It seems now at commerce the avg tip IS $2/pot at 3/6 and 4/8, but mostly from losing players who will never have a positive hourly rate anyway. No offense to dealers, I think they have a very work-intensive job, but I don't think they deserve $60/hour, considering the winning 3/6$ player MAY make $10/hour, after doing much more studying/analysis than 2 weeks at dealer school.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

But what do you think about the waitress analogy and the tournament analogy? What makes cash games so different?

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

Dealers don't get tipped practically every hand they deal as they do in cash games. Thus, they make significantly less per hour working tournaments so they need bigger tips to "make up for it." That said, if I was in a tournament that took money out of the prize pool for staff, I would tend to tip much lighter than I would otherwise.

Jeff

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
But what do you think about the waitress analogy and the tournament analogy? What makes cash games so different?

[/ QUOTE ]

From my point of view nothing. I too am playing for money, money to live on, so tipping is money I am giving away. It doesn't matter if I am tipping the wait staff, the tournament staff (not that I play them much at all anymore) or a dealer. Pots get $1-$2, wait staff $1, tournament staff 5% to 10%, the larger the payout the more towards the 5% it will be.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dealers don't get tipped practically every hand they deal as they do in cash games. Thus, they make significantly less per hour working tournaments so they need bigger tips to "make up for it." That said, if I was in a tournament that took money out of the prize pool for staff, I would tend to tip much lighter than I would otherwise.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought a piece of the entry fees was held back for the dealers. No?

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
But what do you think about the waitress analogy and the tournament analogy? What makes cash games so different?

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine sitting down for a meal and having one person take your drink order, one person take your appetizer order, another for your entre, then a different person brings your drink, your app, your meal etc. you now need to tip each of them each time they bring you something, and the busboy, hostess, bartender, etc. Something tells me those tips are going to drop down to the $1 range.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought a piece of the entry fees was held back for the dealers. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not every tournament ever run.

So do skim the pool for staff, some don't. Ask before you sign up for it.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it depends on whether you see tokes as, "I'm rewarding you for your hard work," or "I'm sharing part of my recent good fortune with you." I tend to see it as a mix of the two -- but of course, that suits me as a low-limit player because it gives me an excuse to tip half-dollars at the Foxwoods $2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to look at it as a customary thing, so I just do it. There are times where I think a dealer has done his job very well, like a player gets out of line and he settles the situation in a professional manner, or he deals very quickly and makes sure the hands per hour we get is high. In these cases, I will tip when they get up. In general though, I only sometimes look at it as reward for hard work and rarely look at is as sharing my fortune.

[ QUOTE ]
I play for fun, so maybe my philosophy is different. I take this analogy: when tipping a waitress - you usually tip 15-20%. If the meal is more expensive you tip more. If she sucks, you may stiff her a little on the tip, say, 10%, and if she's good, you'll give her a little more. But the constant in all this is that the percentage is in relation to how much your bill came out to. It's not like she's carrying heavier plates or anything for more expensive dishes - it's all the same whether it's a burger or kobe beef.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've made a good point. People look at the game differently. A lot of players here don't look at the game as "just for fun". With the philosophy of always trying to get money from +EV situations, it's -EV to tip more than necessary.

I look at tipping waitresses differently. Again, I see it as customary, but when I go to eat dinner, I just treat it as part of the cost. I go out to eat dinner with friends to have fun and get a good meal. I'm not scrounging for +EV situations when I eat. Otherwise, I'd have eaten at home for 1/5 the cost.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Say you are a pro player and play 40-80 for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week (50 hours). Assume 40 hands an hour and that you win 4 of them.
Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Jimany xmas Jeffage, I wish I could do that!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] My last 23 hrs of play have gotten me 12 pots!! Last nite was no exception, 4 hrs = o pots, I suck. vpip=less than 8% I'm sure. heh. Gosh I think I'm gonna go get 2 hookers as soon as I see 3 winning sessions in a row!! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jimany xmas Jeffage, I wish I could do that!! My last 23 hrs of play have gotten me 12 pots!!

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG, I don't even want to tell you what my last 3 weeks have looked like online. If I could tip the goddamn thing to let my cards hold up just once, I would shove dollars into my DVD drive, anywhere lol. I can't wait till I spend alot of next month in Vegas away from this infernal machine.

See you there, you I tip well. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Jeff

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]

I play for fun, so maybe my philosophy is different. I take this analogy: when tipping a waitress - you usually tip 15-20%. If the meal is more expensive you tip more. If she sucks, you may stiff her a little on the tip, say, 10%, and if she's good, you'll give her a little more. But the constant in all this is that the percentage is in relation to how much your bill came out to. It's not like she's carrying heavier plates or anything for more expensive dishes - it's all the same whether it's a burger or kobe beef.

I do tip more if I win a bigger pot. For a 1200 pot in a 1/2NL game, i'd probably tip 15, b/c that's a HUGE pot for 1/2 (600BB), maybe more depending on my mood, how much of the pot was my money, and how good the dealer is. If it's a $5 pot, I don't tip anything. Tipping $1 for a 600BB pot i think is being a bit on the cheap side.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analogy is bad. Expensive restaurants have different standards and expectations from less expensive ones, particularly when it comes to service. Further, the staff at The French Laundry is substantially different across every meaningful dimension from the neighborhood Olive Garden.

Finally, for your analogy to be accurate, you should be tipping dealers proportional to their competence at the end of their down, regardless of whether you win a pot.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, for your analogy to be accurate, you should be tipping dealers proportional to their competence at the end of their down, regardless of whether you win a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually wish this were the system.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I play for fun, so maybe my philosophy is different. I take this analogy: when tipping a waitress - you usually tip 15-20%. If the meal is more expensive you tip more. If she sucks, you may stiff her a little on the tip, say, 10%, and if she's good, you'll give her a little more. But the constant in all this is that the percentage is in relation to how much your bill came out to. It's not like she's carrying heavier plates or anything for more expensive dishes - it's all the same whether it's a burger or kobe beef.

I do tip more if I win a bigger pot. For a 1200 pot in a 1/2NL game, i'd probably tip 15, b/c that's a HUGE pot for 1/2 (600BB), maybe more depending on my mood, how much of the pot was my money, and how good the dealer is. If it's a $5 pot, I don't tip anything. Tipping $1 for a 600BB pot i think is being a bit on the cheap side.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analogy is bad. Expensive restaurants have different standards and expectations from less expensive ones, particularly when it comes to service. Further, the staff at The French Laundry is substantially different across every meaningful dimension from the neighborhood Olive Garden.

Finally, for your analogy to be accurate, you should be tipping dealers proportional to their competence at the end of their down, regardless of whether you win a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think his analagy is that bad. The server is just bringing you your food the same as a dealer is just pushing you the pot. Why should i give one server 40$ and another one 20$ just because of the price of food? Both are doing the same job. One may do the job better but do they deserve substantially more money for the same job?

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
But what do you think about the waitress analogy and the tournament analogy? What makes cash games so different?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no difference. In a cash game, you only tip when you win, same as in a tournament. You pay more than $1 at the end of a tournament because you're paying for hundreds of hands. It works out the same.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I play for fun, so maybe my philosophy is different. I take this analogy: when tipping a waitress - you usually tip 15-20%. If the meal is more expensive you tip more. If she sucks, you may stiff her a little on the tip, say, 10%, and if she's good, you'll give her a little more. But the constant in all this is that the percentage is in relation to how much your bill came out to. It's not like she's carrying heavier plates or anything for more expensive dishes - it's all the same whether it's a burger or kobe beef.

I do tip more if I win a bigger pot. For a 1200 pot in a 1/2NL game, i'd probably tip 15, b/c that's a HUGE pot for 1/2 (600BB), maybe more depending on my mood, how much of the pot was my money, and how good the dealer is. If it's a $5 pot, I don't tip anything. Tipping $1 for a 600BB pot i think is being a bit on the cheap side.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analogy is bad. Expensive restaurants have different standards and expectations from less expensive ones, particularly when it comes to service. Further, the staff at The French Laundry is substantially different across every meaningful dimension from the neighborhood Olive Garden.

Finally, for your analogy to be accurate, you should be tipping dealers proportional to their competence at the end of their down, regardless of whether you win a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think his analagy is that bad. The server is just bringing you your food the same as a dealer is just pushing you the pot. Why should i give one server 40$ and another one 20$ just because of the price of food? Both are doing the same job. One may do the job better but do they deserve substantially more money for the same job?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good job missing the point.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

I don't think it's such a bad analogy if it's confined to a single restaurant. You tip more for a $20 entree than an $8 entree, which is debatable.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

Have we not completely exhausted everything there is to say on this top in the past 3 months? This is just beating a dead horse. Why do tipping threads garner the most flame retardant replies?

Simple, tip if you want to. Don't tip if you don't feel like you should. This forum doesn't need to be constantly drowning in this question every single week.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have we not completely exhausted everything there is to say on this top in the past 3 months? This is just beating a dead horse. Why do tipping threads garner the most flame retardant replies?

Simple, tip if you want to. Don't tip if you don't feel like you should. This forum doesn't need to be constantly drowning in this question every single week.

[/ QUOTE ]


Direct from the "Sticky" outside the door...

[ QUOTE ]
4. Anything that's posted about ad nauseum. For example, tipping, 18+ casinos, how much money to bring to a casino. If you have a basic question, it's probably been asked and answered multiple times in the past. PLEASE USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION. I know the search function sucks, but give it a go. Try it multiple times with different search terms/methods, your question is probably in there somewhere. We were all new at some point, but for those that no longer are, it can get tiresome seeing the same posts over and over again. Often, it's the veterans who post the answers you seek, so encourage their participation by not posting the same thread repeteadly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

Oh yes, I know this for a fact, but some people just can't seem to figure it out. This just seems to be the kind of thread that gets the most response (as sad as that is). I wish these threads would get locked or deleted as they are just a waste of space since they've been discussed so many times to death. The result is always the same.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yes, I know this for a fact, but some people just can't seem to figure it out. This just seems to be the kind of thread that gets the most response (as sad as that is). I wish these threads would get locked or deleted as they are just a waste of space since they've been discussed so many times to death. The result is always the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please just stay out of them. Your response is always "haven't we had enough of these". Personally, i think you have. So seriously, if you have nothing to add just ignore them.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
So seriously, if you have nothing to add just ignore them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Has anyone added anything new to them? Nope. And if you'd scroll up, I did add something to the thread. The only thing that really needed to be said about the tipping.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jimany xmas Jeffage, I wish I could do that!! My last 23 hrs of play have gotten me 12 pots!!

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG, I don't even want to tell you what my last 3 weeks have looked like online. If I could tip the goddamn thing to let my cards hold up just once, I would shove dollars into my DVD drive, anywhere lol. I can't wait till I spend alot of next month in Vegas away from this infernal machine.

See you there, you I tip well. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

HEY it works!!! Throw a redbird in that little slot UNDER the cd/dvd tray! I just did it online!! I took 56 (sooted mind you) all-in up against AK AJ KJ & KQ in a rebuy tourn!
With a flop of 45722!! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

When ya comin? Shoot me a PM well get together!

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, for your analogy to be accurate, you should be tipping dealers proportional to their competence at the end of their down, regardless of whether you win a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played with a guy in a 9/18 game a couple nights ago who, every time he won a pot, added one or two $1 chips to a little stack off to the side of his chips. He would tell each dealer that he would be awarded the stack at the end of his down if he didn't deal him any bad beats.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

I had a legitimate question in my original post. It's not my fault that the thread was hijacked into a typical tipping post.

Thanks to those who answered my question.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have we not completely exhausted everything there is to say on this top in the past 3 months? This is just beating a dead horse. Why do tipping threads garner the most flame retardant replies?

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the OP's assertion that he wasn't trying to create "just another tipping thread" and agree that he didn't do anything explicit to lead in that direction. However, I also think this is a classic example of why I want to put some of these perennial debates on a wiki. Post all the arguments for tipping adequately; all the arguments against tipping; all the arguments for tipping but less than conventional, or more than conventional, or whatever. If someone comes up with a truly novel angle, add it to the wiki. But put it all in one place and then refer everyone there -- not to take traffic away from 2+2's forums, but to clear out 2+2's forums so one can actually find the new content that's so valuable.

With message boards and mailing lists, it's tempting for everyone to try to get in the last word. So better to offload that discussion to a format where everyone gets their say, someone new can read all the arguments, and everyone else can go about their business.

I'm sure everyone wonders why I hype the wiki idea. I don't make a cent from it. But THIS, the emotions expressed in Photoc's post, is why I devote time to that project. Ranting is therapeutic at times, but I'd rather try to do something constructive to solve the problem at hand.

I do get the feeling I'm the only one who sees the value in a solution rather than just ranting, though.

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your analogy is bad. Expensive restaurants have different standards and expectations from less expensive ones, particularly when it comes to service.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does that differ from expectations in a $2/4 versus $75/150 game?

Re: Tipping in higher limit games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have we not completely exhausted everything there is to say on this top in the past 3 months?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think not. I find various new and fascinating nuances are explored every time it's discussed. And from the amount of interest these threads usually generate, it seems clear that many others do also.

[ QUOTE ]
This forum doesn't need to be constantly drowning in this question every single week.

[/ QUOTE ]
This forum seems plenty big enough to me to handle the amount of threads that come through. And my personal policy is to refrain from telling other people what they should or shouldn't do. I leave that up to parents, teachers, clergy, government, moderators and others who like to play the control game.