Oddly played T9s
 

SB here is 25/8.3/2.2 after about 70. CO here is 42/4/2 after 50.

I think every street is debatable. I did get called a moron by SB after the hand though.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, MP calls.

River: (8 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Re: Oddly playedT9s
 

Iso raaaaaaaaaise.

I may call the turn, may fold depending on how MP plays postflop. I don't think you're ahead often enough to raise, however, and its not like you're getting any hands to fold that you want folding.

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

Raise preflop.

Fold the turn. It's rare that someone fires a bluff on this board into 3 opponents. Pot is small.

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

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Raise preflop.

Fold the turn. It's rare that someone fires a bluff on this board into 3 opponents. Pot is small.

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But its not rare for them to bet a 7 or 9. The problem is that it could just as easily be an A or K, which is why I think the turn decision depends a lot on MP. If he calls the turn with just about any real hand, I think you have to fold.

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

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Raise preflop.

Fold the turn. It's rare that someone fires a bluff on this board into 3 opponents. Pot is small.

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But its not rare for them to bet a 7 or 9. The problem is that it could just as easily be an A or K, which is why I think the turn decision depends a lot on MP. If he calls the turn with just about any real hand, I think you have to fold.

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MP can easily have a flush draw, straight draw, or a worse pair. I don't think either of them have an A or K, has neither bet the flop, and they are both kinda agressive.

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

I agree that I probably should of raised preflop.

I am unsure of whether or not to bet this flop. Against 3 opponents, I don't know if this will work even close to enough, but against 2, I think I probably bet this board.

What do most people do on this turn? I don't think folding is an option. My thinking was that I could possibly have value, and since I was going to have to call a river bet anyway most of the time, I figured I would go for the free showdown play.

I think betting the river might have value, but I was not sure. Given MPs call on the turn, I figure he is on a draw, or has a pair almost certainly worse then mine (although I guess he could have J9 or Q9 or something, but I don't think it is that often). SB completed, so his range could be pretty wide. Again, I thought I might have him beat (with a hand he would call the river), but I wasn't sure.

Anyone else have thoughts on the matter?

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

I'd see raising as marginal in a larger pot here, but not worth the investment in this tiny one. Even the draws that could be out there will beat you occasionally. You could call, hoping to check-thru your medium pair. Just don't see the pot worth spending 2 bets on the turn. I favor folding.

pal

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

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I agree that I probably should of raised preflop.


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Why? Do you really think T9s is the best hand at that point? Or do we have a read that we'll push the limper out if we bet the flop and he missed?

I've seen folks advocating raising these hands preflop and I'm still trying to get an understanding as to why. SSH wouldn't have you raising it in a full game. Shorthanded is even more about big cards than connectors trying to catch a great flop, so why are we advocating raising T9s?

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

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I agree that I probably should of raised preflop.


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Why? Do you really think T9s is the best hand at that point? Or do we have a read that we'll push the limper out if we bet the flop and he missed?


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Because it's very good to isolate weak/passive players who will go to showdown with any piece when your hand has absolutely no showdown value, like T9s. It's even better if one of the blinds are likely to come along &amp; go to showdown with any piece as well.

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

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Why? Do you really think T9s is the best hand at that point? Or do we have a read that we'll push the limper out if we bet the flop and he missed?


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Because it's very good to isolate weak/passive players who will go to showdown with any piece when your hand has absolutely no showdown value, like T9s. It's even better if one of the blinds are likely to come along &amp; go to showdown with any piece as well.

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So would you raise 23s in this situation? 45s? 78s? Are we just counting on the fact we can outplay them post flop?

I just don't get trying to isolate with what we're pretty damn sure is a worse hand than the person were isolating. Raising with a worse hand is -EV right? What makes it +EV in the long run?

There's some key concept I'm just not groking.

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

I was fairly certain my sarcasm was evident, but maybe not. I don't understand the crowd that wants to isolate when they have no showdown value at all, unless it's some guy who always check/folds missed flops (I have never met this guy btw).

jvs

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

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I was fairly certain my sarcasm was evident, but maybe not. I don't understand the crowd that wants to isolate when they have no showdown value at all, unless it's some guy who always check/folds missed flops (I have never met this guy btw).

jvs

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CO's preflop limp can be a wide array of things, but we definetly have pretty good equity. Against a somewhat likely range of his holdings, we have 45% hot cold equity (I did this by selecting the top 40% or so of hands for him in PokerStove, and removing some of the best ones that he would be raising with). With a 3rd player we have about 31% equity.

Now, although we have slight equity deficiencies, we have a HUGE advantage with position and folding equity and the fact that our opponent will most likely make many post flop mistakes.

The fact that we have no showdown value UI isn't really much of a problem. We will flop a straight or flush draw or a pair or better over 50% of the time with this hand. The rest of the time, if you use good judgement, you might be able to win anyways, or at least keep your losses to a minimum.

I don't consider limping a big mistake though. As you see, that is what I did in this hand, and I think it has merits as well.

I think the postflop play is more interesting than preflop play, so can we try to keep the discussion focused on that in this thread?

Thanks,
Spicymoose

Re: Oddly played T9s
 

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I agree that I probably should of raised preflop.

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Should have, Moose, should have.

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I am unsure of whether or not to bet this flop. Against 3 opponents, I don't know if this will work even close to enough, but against 2, I think I probably bet this board.

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I also check behind on this flop. You can't be sure if any calls will be air, pairs, draws, or what, so you can't be comfortable firing on the turn even if you do improve. You don't get the pot anywhere near often enough, and you may walk into a check-raise.

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What do most people do on this turn? I don't think folding is an option. My thinking was that I could possibly have value, and since I was going to have to call a river bet anyway most of the time, I figured I would go for the free showdown play.

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The problem is that sometimes you'll be 3bet and sometimes the river will be checked to you even if you just call. In addition, you've announced that you don't have an A or K by checking behind on the flop. You probably don't have a 7, and even if you did, why would you raise the turn instead of just betting the flop? I think this turn raise makes your hand pretty transparent, meaning you'll often be 3bet by any decent opponent who whiffed on a flop c/r. In addition, getting donked on the river really takes the wind out of your play.

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I think betting the river might have value, but I was not sure. Given MPs call on the turn, I figure he is on a draw, or has a pair almost certainly worse then mine (although I guess he could have J9 or Q9 or something, but I don't think it is that often). SB completed, so his range could be pretty wide. Again, I thought I might have him beat (with a hand he would call the river), but I wasn't sure.

Anyone else have thoughts on the matter?

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I don't think SB has a worse 9 or a 7 often enough for a bet here to have value unless MP overcalls with a worse hand. I have trouble running the math on stuff like this, but I think you have to think SB has an A a respectable portion of the time (unless you had a read he doesn't c/r limped pots often), a K more often, and a 7 or 9 about equally. MP is a lot harder to put on a range. I think you're underestimating his likelihood of having a scared K, but you were the one at the table. Maybe you could give a little more detail as to ranges and probabilities of holdings.